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The Crossover between Hypothyroidism and CFS

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by debored13, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    http://lesswrong.com/lw/nhs/the_thyroid_madness_two_apparently_contradictory/

    This is an odd article, written on the rationalist forum/site lesswrong, which I don't always like as a community. But this comes across as a really important article, tying together cfs and hypothyroid conditions.

    I hate when people try and tie cfs into their grand theory, but hypothyroidism is possibly a tricky to diagnose issue, and the medical establishment very well may be wrong about it. I've seen broda barnes' work dismissed as quackery but I've literally never seen any secondary lit that discusses why he was wrong. This article discusses in great detail the conditions of thyroid hormone resistance that mean that your blood tests could show up normal and still you effectively have hypothyroid.

    see also: http://lesswrong.com/lw/nbm/thyroid_hormones_chronic_fatigue_and_fibromyalgia/
    and :
    http://lesswrong.com/lw/n8u/a_medical_mystery_thyroid_hormones_chronic/




    sorry if my post is scattered. I'm trying to do too much, it's above my activity threshold rn.

    But I think other people may have a field day with looking through these writings. These aren't primary studies, but are writings by someone in the rationalist community proposing a theory of hypothyroidism that explains many chronic illness states

    @Hip @Learner1 @pattismith @necessary8 think you all may be interested
     
  2. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    thanks @debored13 , I'm not up to reading much yet but will bookmark.

    I did read your first link though, and it was decidedly ' enlightening'...

    Recently I've been comparing bloodwork done. I saw thyroidtest done in 2005 and had to think, what triggered my GP to test thyroid at that time..ah yeah, i was becoming fat, was not able to get rid of the fat and being fat is just not how I am. Also sluggish in the morning.

    Now I realize that the thinning of the brows at that time was already firmly in place. Reading the link, yes, I've struggled with major depression and did ( and do) have IBS.

    Now GP is testing for anti-autobodies because blood-work points to hyperactive thyroid.
    reading that Myhill says thyroid is the " pushing factor" for mito...oh well...what a shit this is.

    Put the puzzle is getting laid, piece by piece.
     
  3. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    @debored13 ,

    I agree with John Lawrence and Dr Holtorf, the theory and the evidences are strong.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cfs-me-and-intracellular-hypothyroidism.57031/

    Thyroid hormons resistance would make a good clinical model for CFS/ME.

    My Low T3 syndrome (which is supposed to be a body danger response to different conditions) is also a good clinical model for CFS/ME.

    Like you I am looking for a possible link between the danger cell response and a possible thyroid hormons resistance, but cannot solve the equation for now.

    Thank you for posting on that exciting subject!
     
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  4. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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  5. Nine lives

    Nine lives

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    My experience that is when free T3 is raised to optimal, my SHBG increases (has been as high as 195). This then affects free testosterone adversely which makes me feel bad. My gut feeling is that my body wants me in hypo metabolic state for some reason and messing with these downstream hormones, for me at least, is counter productive.
     
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  6. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    seeing some people here who are much wiser in thyroid things than I am.

    Bloodwork gave B6 way to high ( 511), I did take a Bcomplex with 10mg B6, stopped that now.
    I suppose that this has relation with B12 shortage, but that too is a topic that i need to study more.

    I wonder whether those high B6 blood-levels can be the reason that my thyroid seems to go in overdrive
     
  7. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    B6 is used in several processes, like sphingolipid production, heme production, the methionine cycle with B12, and glutathione production.

    If you're high in it, it might be because you're missing cofactors for it in one of these processes, so it can't be optimally used.

    What kind of test showed it was high? Serum, RBC, ??
     
  8. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    just normal bloodtest, ( meaning I dunno ;))
    I think the reason that it is so high because of B12 problem. I asked him to test folate too, probably too high too for the same reason.
     
  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Attached Files:

  10. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    this is quite a lot of info. i'll dive in, soon.

    I didn't mean to offend anyone with an idea that CFS is just a thyroid problem.

    I'm just trying to figure out thyroid stuff myself. supplementing t3 seems like a big step to take and I want to know what side of the controversy I land on.

    I wouldn't think that thyroid stuff is necessarily the cause of CFS but the thyroid is controlled by/related to purinergic signalling, so it could still fit into @necessary8 's theory
     
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  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I was on T3 only after having sky high rT3 for 5 years, and now am on T3/T4. My only issue is a suppressed TSH. I don't think taking T3 only is a bad thing.
     
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  12. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    if titrated properly do you think there is any need to home monitor Bp while doing it or should measuring heart rate and temp be enough
     
  13. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I can es feel when I'm on too much T3. I run warm and sweaty, am starving, heart is pounding in my chest.

    I got tired of my doctors telling me what to take and seeing labs with FT3 and FT4 at the bottom of the range. I played around with my doses of T4 and T3 until I didn't feel hypo or hyper (realize I've been on thyroid hormones for 7 years, so I knew what I felt like). I finally settled on 137mcg T4 and 50mcg T3 (taken in 2 25mcg doses).

    Then I had my labs run and FT3 and FT4 were about 40% from the bottom of the normal range. :)
     
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  14. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I think my FT3 and FT4 were actually near the top of the range, but TSH was around 1.7 . friend ran values through a new software designed to look at thyroid homeostasis and said i possibly had thyroid hormone resistance
     
  15. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    That could be.
     
  16. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    "Is there any way that the hypothyroid theory could fit with Naviaux's idea that CFS is a hypometabolic state caused by an issue with purinergic signalling? is there a connection between purinergic signalling and the thyroid? Are there less toxic ways than suramin to "fix" this problem with purinergic signalling?" --me, email to ray peat



    ray's response:
    "Hypothyroidism is the main factor that causes cell leakiness. Low vitamin E, hypoglycemia, high estrogen, and other things interact. Extracellular ATP is a sign of the damage resulting from low energy producton, the problem that needs fixing is much more basic. "
     
  17. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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  18. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    New research is demonstrating that thyroid hormone transport across cellular membranes plays an important role in intracellular triiodothyronine (T3) levels of peripheral and pituitary tissues and is proving to have considerable clinical significance. Reduced T4 and T3 transport into the cells in peripheral tissues is seen with a wide range of common conditions, including insulin resistance, diabetes, depression, bipolar disorder, hyperlipidemia, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, neurodegenerative diseases, migraines, stress, anxiety, chronic dieting and aging, while the intracellular T3 level in the pituitary often remains unaffected. The pituitary has different transporters than every other tissue in the body. The thyroid transporters in the body are very energy dependent and are affected by numerous conditions, including low energy states, toxins and mitochondrial dysfunction, while the pituitary remains unaffected. Because the pituitary remains largely unaffected and is able to maintain intracellular T3 levels while the rest of the body suffers from significantly reduced intracellular T3 levels, there is no elevation in thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) despite the presence of wide-spread tissue hypothyroidism, making the TSH and other standard blood tests a poor marker to determine the presence or absence of hypothyroidism. Because the T4 transporter is more energy dependent than the transporter for T3, it is also not surprising that T4 preparations are generally ineffective in the presence of such conditions, while T3 replacement is shown to be beneficial. Thus, if a patient with a normal TSH presents with signs or symptoms consistent with hypothyroidism, which may include low basal body temperature, fatigue, weight gain, depression, cold extremities, muscle aches, headaches, decreased libido, weakness, cold intolerance, water retention, slow reflex relaxation phase or PMS, a combination of both clinical and laboratory assessment, which may include a T3/reverse T3 ratio and the level of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), should be used to determine the likely overall thyroid status and if a therapeutic trail of straight T3 or a T4/T3 combination is indicated and not based solely on standard thyroid function tests.
     
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  19. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Extracellular ATP does a lot of things;

    https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...wBNgQFggjMAc&usg=AOvVaw1Ycya0KORxoU-b6altNt9W


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22948816/
     
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  20. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    The problem I have with his article (that attempts to be scientific) is when I read sentences like this. Essentially he tries to lump CFS, IBS and depression (and probably everything else that doesn't have well established diagnostic markers) into one disease, which he claims is hypothyroidism. This is nothing much different from what the BPS crowd is doing at the moment, where they try to label all these diseases as MUS (medically unexplained symptoms). Or what homeopathy or many other bogus alternative treatments are claiming, that they essentially can treat any disease and every disease is due to "problem X". Just because a disease is not easy to objectively diagnose, it shouldn't be subject to quackery like lumping everything into one category.
     
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