Thank God we have all those dentists on our side!

[CBS]

To anyone who thinks that the the HHS is doing us a favor by putting all those dental pain specialists (think TMD) on the CFSAC committee or that the CAA is helping by joining forces with the larger pain management research community, you might think again after reading the following abstract (my highlights and underline - just in case you missed the point). TMD may be more common in fibro or CFS (I don't know, never looked into it) but these authors clearly believe that pain reported by CFS patients is psychosomatic (not just somatic). These people are not our allies and this view is not benign!

Indian J Dent Res. 2012 Jul;23(4):529-36. doi: 10.4103/0970-9290.104965.
Temporomandibular disorders and functional somatic syndromes: Deliberations for the dentist.

Suma S, Veerendra Kumar B.
Source

Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology, DA Pandu Memorial RV Dental College and Hospital, No. CA 37, 24th Main, JP Nagar I Phase, Bangalore, Karnataka, India.
Abstract

Temporomandibular disorder (TMD) is an umbrella term for a collection of disorders affecting the temporomandibular joint (TMJ) and associated tissues. TMD is not a rare pathology for the dentist. The most common presenting symptom is pain, which causes the patient seek immediate treatment. Management is dictated by the cause. The most 'famed' causes include trauma, inflammation, aging, parafunctional habits, infections, neoplasms, and stress; and these are always considered in the differential diagnosis of TMJ pain. There are some less 'famed' causes of TMD, which are characterized by increased pain sensitivity due to psychosocial factors; these include myofascial pain syndrome and functional somatic syndromes (FSS) such as fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome. They present with chronic pain, fatigue, disability, and impairment in ability to perform daily activities. A non-systematic search in the English literature revealed numerous studies describing the occurrence of TMD in these conditions, along with few other oral manifestations. TMD has been even considered to be a part of the FSS by some. In these patients, TMD remains a recurring problem, and adequate management cannot be achieved by traditional treatment protocols. Awareness of these conditions, with correct diagnosis and modification of management protocols accordingly, may resolve this problem.

This appears to have been published in July in a relatively obscure Indian journal but this morning it was at the top of my PubMed search results for "myalgic encephalomyelitis." Somebody please tell me that this is just some sort of sick joke.

 

[Desdinova]

I wish I could I really do. When is science not science? When it's only done in the loosest sense of the word for appearances sake.

 

[Sean]

A non-systematic search

Yawn.

 

[alex3619]

Hmmm, first introduce bias by not doing a wide review. Thats a risk for everyone, but its a real problem when giving medical advice. Then make vague reassuring comments ... it may help. Not we have done extensive research and strategy A B or C will help, just vaguely considering this issue may help.

It should not be presumed though that the fact some dentists in India entertain these ideas, then many dentists everywhere believe this, even in India.

 

[Little Bluestem]

but this morning it was at the top of my PubMed search results for "myalgic encephalomyelitis."

No matter how bad the science, this cannot be good. There are too many non-critical readers/thinkers out there.

 

[GracieJ]

This is pathetic.

If I only had a dime for every TMJ person who came my way whose dentists couldn't or wouldn't help them... there are such distinct differences in jaw alignment and muscle quality. I do see a lot of it in autoimmune cases, all over the spectrum. Rather than calling it psychosocial, there is plenty of room to explore it as immune/neural related.

To lump it all once again under bps is bs.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Goat humping tonsil garglers! like to see how they'd do living with this (ME)!
thinking I'll need ot ask for Tramadol or such pain's getting too much :/

Psychosomatic?! Well, Herr dentists, any of you remember "Marathon Man"? yes let's get Medieval on your asses for a change instead of ours, and then see how they'd like it

PS
a son of a bitch dentist drilled 4 of my back teeth with no anaesthetic when I was about 8, despite my screams and telling him he had NOT numbed the nerves.
Some are decent but really it's cosmetic surgery and since they are responsible for poisoning millions of peoplr with mercury I put them in the "Son fo a bitch Snake Oil salesman whos hould be jailed" category, same as the psychobabblers.
The inhuman hubris of "folk who think a white coat makes them God" pisses me off no end

 

[alex3619]

Thanks to two researchers in Omaha we might have a new view of all this soon. It was just published by Invest in ME, which is UK based I think. Here is the link:

http://www.investinme.org/Documents/Journals/Journal of IiME Vol 3 Issue 1 Screen.pdf

Scroll down to the Human Entervirus section. Based on this, Lerner and Chia are probably
right. It turns out that enteroviruses have not one but three lifecycles.The idea they could cause ME was rejected because everyone presumed they only had the single classic viral life cycle. The other two are super slow replication, not the hit and run destroying cells, and a symbiotic replication requiring wild virus. Go figure. Enterviruses are long term persistent viruses.

So the babbler's days are numbered if it can be shown these mechanisms occur in ME, something which is already half shown - it just requires replication and a little development.

This deserves its own thread but I am running out of oomph for now.

Lerner is of course saying this mainly for herpes family, but I suspect that they have a similar lifecycle. In fact any long term persistent virus might do this. Chia has of course found such virus in biopsies.

Bye, Alex

PS The date on this publication is Spring 2009. It seems it has been ignored. It does strike me this was about the time that the XMRV story was commencing.

 

[natasa778]

Just an as aside, sort of, TMDs can be caused by allergic/histamine reactions, amongst other things.

 

[peggy-sue]

I very rarely bother having an anaesthetic for having my teeth drilled - but that's just what I'm used to.
As to mercury... if it were relevant, how come dentists themselves, who come into a great deal of contact with raw mercury, don't feature as a major group of ME sufferers?

Having said that, it's appalling they appear to have fallen for the psychobabbers cr*p.

 

[leela]

Y

Thanks to two researchers in Omaha we might have a new view of all this soon. It was just published by Invest in ME, which is UK based I think. Here is the link:

http://www.investinme.org/Documents/Journals/Journal of IiME Vol 3 Issue 1 Screen.pdf

Scroll down to the Human Entervirus section. Based on this, Lerner and Chia are probably
right. It turns out that enteroviruses have not one but three lifecycles.The idea they could cause ME was rejected because everyone presumed they only had the single classic viral life cycle. The other two are super slow replication, not the hit and run destroying cells, and a symbiotic replication requiring wild virus. Go figure. Enterviruses are long term persistent viruses.

So the babbler's days are numbered if it can be shown these mechanisms occur in ME, something which is already half shown - it just requires replication and a little development.

This deserves its own thread but I am running out of oomph for now.

Lerner is of course saying this mainly for herpes family, but I suspect that they have a similar lifecycle. In fact any long term persistent virus might do this. Chia has of course found such virus in biopsies.

Bye, Alex

PS The date on this publication is Spring 2009. It seems it has been ignored. It does strike me this was about the time that the XMRV story was commencing.

Yes, Alex, this deserves not only its own thread but some serious, long-term, focused, multidsciplinary research.
How does the important stuff like this slip through the cracks, while the completely illogical stance of "we can't find it so it's in your head" research just goes on and on?
I'm so sick and tired of it. Someone give these people some money for heaven's sake.

Think how many so-called "mysterious" "unexplained" "hysterical" "attention-seeking" chronic illnesses might be explained by this!!

 

[suma s]

Hello Members,

I am Suma, from India. Am the author of the article that has been discussed here. I know I'm a "little" late in seeing this forum, and I am not here to justify, just to clarify few things.

CBS, I don't know why my article showed up when you searched for ME. It is nowhere mentioned in the keywords!! If anyone's interested in reading the whole article, instead of judging by the abstract, I would be happy to upload it. However, I think many concepts we had discussed are already obsolete. The research was done in 2010 and by the time it was published in 2012, I think many concepts had already changed!! The Indian Journal of Dental Research, though may seem obscure, is in fact a PubMed Indexed Journal.

But that's not why I joined this group. I suffer from fibromyalgia syndrome since 6 years, and I mean "suffer" And I have TMD as a part of it. All the doctors I consulted for my TMJ pain never correlated it with all the other "non-specific" symptoms that I had. That's what prompted me in researching this topic, and in writing the article to urge all dentists to consider these diagnoses when diagnosing a person with TMD. Nevertheless, I would definitely say that if I had written the same article in 2014, I would not have used the word "psychosocial".

 

[Valentijn]

However, I think many concepts we had discussed are already obsolete. The research was done in 2010 and by the time it was published in 2012, I think many concepts had already changed!! The Indian Journal of Dental Research, though may seem obscure, is in fact a PubMed Indexed Journal.

But that's not why I joined this group. I suffer from fibromyalgia syndrome since 6 years, and I mean "suffer" And I have TMD as a part of it. All the doctors I consulted for my TMJ pain never correlated it with all the other "non-specific" symptoms that I had. That's what prompted me in researching this topic, and in writing the article to urge all dentists to consider these diagnoses when diagnosing a person with TMD. Nevertheless, I would definitely say that if I had written the same article in 2014, I would not have used the word "psychosocial".

Thank you for the explanation and the update in your views.

My TMD is probably due to untreated late-stage Lyme, which was only recently tested for and found.

There are more in-depth discussions elsewhere on this forum, but briefly stated, it's always important to remember that the lack of a known physical cause does not prove that the cause is psychogenic. Additionally, the opinions and conclusions of other doctors and researchers should not be accepted without question, but rather challenged rigorously in a polite and scientific manner.

 

[Sushi]

@suma s

Welcome to the forum!

Why not introduce yourself in this section. This post may not be seen by the majority of members and we'd all like to "meet you."

Best wishes,
Sushi

 

[IreneF]

Hello Members,

I am Suma, from India. Am the author of the article that has been discussed here. I know I'm a "little" late in seeing this forum, and I am not here to justify, just to clarify few things.

CBS, I don't know why my article showed up when you searched for ME. It is nowhere mentioned in the keywords!! If anyone's interested in reading the whole article, instead of judging by the abstract, I would be happy to upload it. However, I think many concepts we had discussed are already obsolete. The research was done in 2010 and by the time it was published in 2012, I think many concepts had already changed!! The Indian Journal of Dental Research, though may seem obscure, is in fact a PubMed Indexed Journal.

But that's not why I joined this group. I suffer from fibromyalgia syndrome since 6 years, and I mean "suffer" And I have TMD as a part of it. All the doctors I consulted for my TMJ pain never correlated it with all the other "non-specific" symptoms that I had. That's what prompted me in researching this topic, and in writing the article to urge all dentists to consider these diagnoses when diagnosing a person with TMD. Nevertheless, I would definitely say that if I had written the same article in 2014, I would not have used the word "psychosocial".

Your article showed up because of the way PubMed is indexed. It would take a while to explain it. I know this because I took a class that was mostly "how to search Medline" back in the days before the modern interface was constructed. I was getting my Master's in Library/Info Sci.

 

[IreneF]

Both my husband and I have TMJ problems because we clench our teeth at night. Our wonderful dentist made us nightguards that work 100%. My husband does not have CFS, fibromyalgia, or any other "psychogenic" condition.

I'm also sensitive to epinephrine, and my last dental procedure was nasty. I can't open my mouth very wide anymore. I think it's because I'm so stressed by being sick, and I can't do any of the things I used to do to relax, such as yoga or swimming.

 

[daisybell]

Both my husband and I have TMJ problems because we clench our teeth at night. Our wonderful dentist made us nightguards that work 100%. My husband does not have CFS, fibromyalgia, or any other "psychogenic" condition.

I'm also sensitive to epinephrine, and my last dental procedure was nasty. I can't open my mouth very wide anymore. I think it's because I'm so stressed by being sick, and I can't do any of the things I used to do to relax, such as yoga or swimming.

I also clench my teeth at night, but can't keep any mouth guard in my mouth... As soon as I go to sleep, I spit it out!

I'm in the middle of getting some fillings done at the moment, and having trouble with hypersensitivity.. The dentist had to stop and give me more anaesthetic because I could still feel the drill, and now five days post-filling, I still have toothache when I eat or drink anything that isn't body temp. I have to have two more fillings done on Friday so I am really not looking forward to the aftermath of that as well.

My dentist is expecting the fillings to be difficult because of my apparently limited mouth opening...

 

[IreneF]

I also clench my teeth at night, but can't keep any mouth guard in my mouth... As soon as I go to sleep, I spit it out!

I'm in the middle of getting some fillings done at the moment, and having trouble with hypersensitivity.. The dentist had to stop and give me more anaesthetic because I could still feel the drill, and now five days post-filling, I still have toothache when I eat or drink anything that isn't body temp. I have to have two more fillings done on Friday so I am really not looking forward to the aftermath of that as well.

My dentist is expecting the fillings to be difficult because of my apparently limited mouth opening...

I had lots of problems with anesthesia last time. And my mouth hurt for weeks.

If I ever get to see him again I'll ask for gas, or take some Klonopin.

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

I also clench my teeth at night, but can't keep any mouth guard in my mouth... As soon as I go to sleep, I spit it out!

My dentist is expecting the fillings to be difficult because of my apparently limited mouth opening...

Ask the dentist to put a block between your upper and lower teeth to keep your mouth open. Every dental office should have a few of these lying around. They are heaven! I can't keep my mouth open for more than 2 - 3 minutes at a time for all the same reasons as everyone else (TMJ, fibro, osteoarthritis on top of it) and I also were a night guard.

 

[leela]

I had lots of problems with anesthesia last time. And my mouth hurt for weeks.

If I ever get to see him again I'll ask for gas, or take some Klonopin.

FYI most ME people respond *very* badly to the gas. I am one of them; it didn't agree with me even before ME.
It's nasty.

Did you ask for novocaine without epinephrine? I always do better with that, especially if I take homepathics.
Arnica for bruising, trauma, and swelling, and Ledum for the soreness from the needle injection site. Very helpful!