International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day Is On May 12, 2018
Thomas Hennessy, Jr., selected May 12th to be our international awareness day back in 1992. He knew that May 12th had also been the birthday of Florence Nightingale. She was the English army nurse who helped to found the Red Cross as well as the first school of nursing in the world.
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T3 intracellular calcium and caffeine

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by pattismith, Jun 3, 2018.

  1. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Vermont, school in Western MA
    I'm not sure what peat had (I think it sounds like somewhat severe thyroid dysfunction) but despite finding the theory interesting, Im somehwat interested b/c I know of a few people with severe, disabling fatigue that benefited from his work. It's tricky to know if they had ME/CFS because they didn't go to specialists and were in europe in a country that has BPS model so I doubt they would have gotten good treatment even if going to a doctor.

    There are people that are diagnosed with CFS on the ray peat forum (which is mostly a cesspool), some of whom have made full recoveries apparently through various medications and food, and some who havent



    But I agree in prioritizing anecdotal evidence of people specifically diagnosed with CFS, even tho I think broader metabolic dysfunction may underlie several disease states. This is why, if doing the dosing protocol that peat/roddy recommends doesn't work, I'll add lithium, and also try the blanchard protocol next.

    As for the bolded part, I'm really not sure. I honestly thought his books just went out of print because they didn't sell much. I think there are a couple of things that he may have changed based on experiment and experience.
    The one on soviet neuroscience is really good read from a philosophy of science perspective and doesn't really have much in the way of practical recommendations but is cool if one is interested in exploring the differing epistemologies of two differing kinds of "materialism".

    Imo I just find the stuff that gets labelled "vitalism" very interesting. It's not really vitalism in the crude sense, but I feel like if one could really understand life or living systems as a whole that it could yield relevant results for many disease states. I do kind of buy the idea that aging and fatigue and several sickness states share physiochemical properties... i think Naviaux does too
     
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  2. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    That is good to know and when I test other things, I have to do it in the morning while fasting and before I have taken Armour or Cortef.

    I am still confused though, do you know how the results of an ion calcium test would change someone's treatment (or would they be more academic and not for treatment purposes)?

    That makes sense and if the calcium is being blocked from going into the cells, it would in theory be blocked from entering the mitochondria. Is MCU a medication or treatment (or just in the experimental stages right now)?
     
  3. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Dandelion Root Extract Induces Intracellular Ca2+Increases in HEK293 Cells
    http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/4/1112

    Perhaps dandelion tea with milk as an alternative to coffee?[/QUOTE]

    Interesting, it's a little late in the season but could probably get some of these. I don't trust all herbal medicine but the fact that dandelion tea is thought so ubiquitous as a tonic could count for something
     
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  4. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I did try dandelion root coffee a few years ago, and it did seem to provide an improvement, but then stopped working. I tried it because I had the same improvement from lettuce (which also stopped working), and dandelion had the same active compound that I thought was responsible (Lactucin).
     
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  5. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    We are supposed to produce about 29 mcg of T3 per day...(both from thyroid and from T4 deiodination)

    If you have deiodination issue like I do (down regulated D1 and upregulated D3), you are more likely to produce maybe only half this dose...

    So I could take 5 mcg x three times per day to raise my T3 level and still stay in a physiologic level....

    The strange thing is that I can only take 6.25 mcg in the morning and no more....
     
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  6. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I really would have to do trial and error to figure all this out, I have next to no hope of being able to figure out and test for any of the transporter related stuff or intracellular calcium atm
     
  7. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    MCU stands for mitochondrial calcium uniporter. We do not yet know enough about how to regulate it.

    The main utility in checking ionized calcium would be to see if you are getting enough calcium. Another useful test is 24 hour urine calcium that can detect excessive urinary calcium loss. I would also include PTH (parathyroid hormone) and activated vitamin D (calcitriol), which is different than the usual vitamin D2 that people usually test.

    These tests would be indicated if you have symptoms of hypocalcemia (muscle spasms, paresthesias, GI issues, depression, dry hair, brittle nails, severe PMS).
     
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  8. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    Of course that would be nice. But that's like wanting to know the meaning of life - pretty ambitious :)
     
  9. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Well on one hand it may be overly ambitious, but on the other hand, the reductionism and eschewing of focus on what makes living systems tick might be part of why our doctors can't cure us. I don't have a scientific background but since getting sick and reading nietzsche, i have an interest in what is often called "vitalism", I believe unfairly
     
  10. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    I just Googled it (b/c I had thought it was some kind of med or treatment :bang-head:) and learned it is the membrane that allows calcium to flow between the cellular fluid and mitochondria. Is this correct?

    My Endo who monitors my Hashimoto's Disease and my current (very slow) taper off of Cortef has definitely tested my PTH and Calcitriol in the past and both were normal. I do not supplement calcium but I do eat dairy (milk, cheese, yogurt, coffee creamer, etc).
     
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  11. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    @drob31
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8867923

    Eur J Pharmacol.
    1996 Feb 29;298(1):79-85.
    Pregnenolone sulfate increases intracellular Ca2+ levels in a pituitary cell line.
    Büküşoğlu C1, Sarlak F.
    Author information

    Abstract
    We have investigated the rapid steroid effects on intracellular calcium ([Ca2+]i levels in a clonal pituitary cell line (GH3). Among the steroids tested only pregnenolone sulfate induced a rapid and transient [Ca2+]i increase within 1 min. The specificity of pregnenolone sulfate-induced [Ca2+]i increase with respect to steroid structure was pronounced. Other steroids (5-40 microM) including pregnenolone, dehydroepiandrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, progesterone, estradiol-17 beta, testosterone, 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone, 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone, 5 alpha-dihydroprogesterone, and 3 alpha,5 alpha-tetrahydroprogesterone were found to be ineffective. The [Ca2+]i increase with pregnenolone sulfate (30 microM) was completely abolished in a Ca(2+)-free medium or in the presence of La3+ (0.1 mM) and Co2+ (5 mM). The organic Ca2+ channel blockers methoxyverapamil (100 microM) and nicardipine (5 microM) both showed similar inhibitions (> 73%). The interaction between pregnenolone sulfate and voltage-gated Ca2+ channels (VGCC) was shown by coapplication of pregnenolone sulfate (10 microM) with Bay K 8644 (0.1 mM) or KCl (15 mM). Coapplication of pregnenolone sulfate with KCl increased the [Ca2+]i in an additive manner. However, with the specific agonist Bay K 8644(+/-), the pregnenolone sulfate effect was potentiated in a majority of the cells, suggesting cooperative interaction between the two. The results demonstrate that pregnenolone sulfate induces a rapid Ca2+ influx in GH3 cells. The marked nicardipine block also suggests that most of the Ca2+ influx is mediated through L-type VGCC.


     
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  12. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I googled wolfram disease, the first thing I see is diabetes insipidus, which I seem to have a mild case of.

    Interesting enough, HTCZ treats thats.
     
  13. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Have you tried caffeine together with cortisol and calcium?
     
  14. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Pretty interesting. pregnenelone definetly turned the lights on for me a few years back. I wonder if we could also get some Bay K 8644.


    https://www.tocris.com/products/dl-bay-k-8644_1544
     
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  15. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    THIS IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW: Do not take lithium and HCTZ together, as it can create lithium toxicity!
     
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  16. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    Yesterday I had a very pronounced effect from taking calcium glycinate. Calcium citrate on other hand does absolutely nothing for me. This is effect was more pronounced now that I'm on lithium then when I tried it a while back when I was not taking lithium. But calcium citrate does nothing even in combo with lithium. So there may be some truth to the claim that the forms chelated to amino acids cross into the cell better.
     
  17. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the advice.

    Did HTCZ lower water retention at all for you?
     
  18. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    How much calcium and lithium are you taking ?
     
  19. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    I take calcium three times a day for years, so I don't know if other things would work without it for me.

    Before I started T3, I was already taking coffee and cortisone when I had a need for a boost and to avoid PEM.

    I still use corticoids but it doesn't work if I take it on a daily basis, so I spare it....:)

    Interestingly, I am low for pregnenolone, and I took it for years ...... with no effect at all...:(
     
  20. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    How much do you take when you need cortisol? I took 5 mg one time in the evening. I think it even helped my sleep.
     

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