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T3 intracellular calcium and caffeine

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Which of your symptoms got better with IVIG and which ones got better with rituximab?

My MCAS and severe allergic reactions almost immediately went into remission from IVIG long before I ever started Rituximab. I also had improvements to my muscle weakness, lung/breathing weakness, and some minimal improvements in POTS. But it was not until several months after Ritux was added that I had significant improvements in these areas and not until after five infusions that I no longer needed wheelchair and could stand, walk, and drive again. After the full year (6 infusions of Ritux), I am basically in remission and no longer have symptoms even of POTS. I am doing weekly PT, walking my dog, shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc, without any assistance. I am hoping to build back to completely normal muscle strength with PT but am not there yet.

Which one do you think had more effect on autoimmunity and which one on fatigue and brain fog?

I believe that both combined had an effect on autoimmunity and each served a different purpose (IVIG getting rid of the fully grown autoantibodies and Ritux stopping new ones from being created at production level by killing B cells). I never had fatigue or brain fog (which is why we no longer believe ME/CFS is my diagnosis as fatigue and brain fog are two of the core symptoms).

I wonder if being on IVIG made rituximab work for you since it didn't do all the great in the study but maybe it's because the other patients weren't on IVIG?

My doctor believes, without question, that the full year of IVIG prior to Ritux allowed the Ritux to work much quicker b/c the fully grown autoantibodies were already gone. So once the B-cells were killed, no new ones could grow. Vs. without IVIG, it would've taken much longer b/c the fully grown autoantibodies are not touched by Ritux and would've still been there causing problems (even though new ones were not being created). I hope I am explaining this well :confused:
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
My MCAS and severe allergic reactions almost immediately went into remission from IVIG long before I ever started Rituximab. I also had improvements to my muscle weakness, lung/breathing weakness, and some minimal improvements in POTS. But it was not until several months after Ritux was added that I had significant improvements in these areas and not until after five infusions that I no longer needed wheelchair and could stand, walk, and drive again. After the full year (6 infusions of Ritux), I am basically in remission and no longer have symptoms even of POTS. I am doing weekly PT, walking my dog, shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc, without any assistance. I am hoping to build back to completely normal muscle strength with PT but am not there yet.



I believe that both combined had an effect on autoimmunity and each served a different purpose (IVIG getting rid of the fully grown autoantibodies and Ritux stopping new ones from being created at production level by killing B cells). I never had fatigue or brain fog (which is why we no longer believe ME/CFS is my diagnosis as fatigue and brain fog are two of the core symptoms).



My doctor believes, without question, that the full year of IVIG prior to Ritux allowed the Ritux to work much quicker b/c the fully grown autoantibodies were already gone. So once the B-cells were killed, no new ones could grow. Vs. without IVIG, it would've taken much longer b/c the fully grown autoantibodies are not touched by Ritux and would've still been there causing problems (even though new ones were not being created). I hope I am explaining this well :confused:
Thanks for explaining. Glad to hear that you're in remission!
I agree that your symptoms sound a lot more like a neuromuscular autoimmune condition rather than CFS.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,946
gr1.jpg

@pattismith @drob31 @Hip

Yes I agree, we always turn around mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired intracellular calcium signal/cytosolic or mitochondrial.

But the calcium signaling is far too much complicated: there is a basal calcium cytosolic concentration, and then some oscillations that can act as signals to activated other signals, other ion channels. Also, calcium channels are so many, and with various distributions in various cells, that it's hard to figure out what really happens.

For example I feel better with T3 + caffeine, so I tryed some drugs able to raise my intracellular calcium, which produced an increase in my tinnitus, so I had to stop....The fact that no drug/supplement is really clean is not helping to find solutions
 

Inara

Senior Member
Messages
455
Herpes virus cell invasion follows activation of IP3 by the herpesvirus, which induces calcium influx from the reticulum to the cytoplasm and allows the virus to penetrate.

On the other hand, T3 is needed to keep control on Herpesvirus, so you can't consider just cytosolic calcium on it"s own.

When I was low T3, Herpes was a chronic issue for me until I started Lysine supplementation. Then I kept my Herpes sumplex under control with daily Lysine intake, but if I was forgetting to take it only a few days, or if I was taking some corticoids, Herpes was showing up again.

When I started T3, I no longer needed lysine, I never had again any Herpes simplex relapse, even when I was taking corticoids.
@pattismith, do you have a reference? I would like to look deeper into this.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,946
@pattismith, do you have a reference? I would like to look deeper into this.
This paper refers to IP3 activation by HSV1

"Together, these results support a model for HSV infection that requires activation of IP3-responsive Ca2+-signaling pathways"

These ones are going a bit deeper:

"Together, these findings demonstrate that integrin αvβ3 signaling is activated downstream of virus-induced Akt signaling and facilitates viral entry through interactions with gH by activating the release of intracellular Ca2+"

"Together, these findings identify a novel role for Akt in viral entry, link Akt and calcium signaling, and suggest a new target for HSV treatment and suppression."


Interestingly, integrin αvβ3 is able to bind with thyroid hormons, to trigger non genomic effects...
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
The fact that no drug/supplement is really clean is not helping to find solutions
Yes, nothing is clear-cut and everything is interconnected. Lithium has been shown to have an anti-viral effect and it's been proposed that valacyclovir has a mood stabilizer effect... So the more you know, the less you know!
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
I was doing research on intracellular calcium to write an article for my blog and I discovered that another person already beat me to that idea;)
https://thebiochemcorner.com/2018/02/23/more-details-on-calcium-signaling/#comment-300

some interesting points she makes:

If you try to stimulate calcium release directly, for example with choline (example: acetylcholine stimulates phospholipase C), this will increase calcium in the mitochondria and cytosol, but it won’t help transport calcium back out of the cytosol that much.

If you try to support calcium signaling by increasing ATP, the ATP will first remove calcium from the cytosol and the excrete into the cytosol and mitochondria. This might result in a lower cytosolic calcium than by simply increasing phospholipase C activity.
 
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frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686247

The chemical structure of gabapentin (Neurontin) is derived by addition of a cyclohexyl group to the backbone of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). Gabapentin prevents seizures in a wide variety of models in animals, including generalized tonic-clonic and partial seizures. Gabapentin has no activity at GABAA or GABAB receptors of GABA uptake carriers of brain. Gabapentin interacts with a high-affinity binding site in brain membranes, which has recently been identified as an auxiliary subunit of voltage-sensitive Ca2+ channels. However, the functional correlate of gabapentin binding is unclear and remains under study. Gabapentin crosses several lipid membrane barriers via system L amino acid transporters. In vitro, gabapentin modulates the action of the GABA synthetic enzyme, glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) and the glutamate synthesizing enzyme, branched-chain amino acid transaminase. Results with human and rat brain NMR spectroscopy indicate that gabapentin increases GABA synthesis. Gabapentin increases non-synaptic GABA responses from neuronal tissues in vitro. In vitro, gabapentin reduces the release of several mono-amine neurotransmitters. Gabapentin prevents pain responses in several animal models of hyperalgesia and prevents neuronal death in vitro and in vivo with models of the neurodegenerative disease amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Gabapentin is also active in models that detect anxiolytic activity. Although gabapentin may have several different pharmacological actions, it appears that modulation of GABA synthesis and glutamate synthesis may be important.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
I should add to this thread my coffee anecdotes. I've been a coffee drinker my whole life and for most of it, except for small periods of stressful work where I added caffeine pills and got past a good dose/response curve, I think the caffeine was beneficial.

When I got sick, caffeine continued to help. My initial trigger was lyme, which was treated, but the symptoms came back, presumably due to inflammation. My initial symptoms weren't fatigue, but more insomnia and brain fog. Oddly enough I found that caffeine could help insomnia, to an extent. It also helped brain fog. I found out later that xanthines like caffeine are mast cell inhibitors.

When I got really sick, I continued to drink coffee, despite all the warnings from people against it. I continued to note this miraculous "paradoxical effect" of helping with sleep, in small amounts. I don't think it's purely excitatory, it can be relaxing/inhibitory too. I later found sometimes that small amounts of thyroid helped with sleep, and that caffeine also contributes to mitochondrial uncoupling and thermogenesis, like thyroid.

I've had periods of being very sensitive to caffeine since getting sick, but I believe all of these were resolved with proper use of carbohydrates and some protein with caffeine. I never, ever drink coffee black, unless I have a carbohydrate rich meal or fruit juice nearby.

I consume a lot of coffee. It never causes crashes. I will not get off it, no matter what any doctor says, until they give me a medicine that can help with the pain as much.

It doesn't make me hyped up or adrenergic, or raise my blood pressure (at least not much). It tends to relax me and help with muscle pain, relax my heart rate and slightly raise my aerobic threshold so I don't get out of breath just sitting up.

it's not curative, obviously I'm still sick. However I feel like complete caffeine avoidance would've been bad for me, and I'm glad that I can at least achieve momentary relief with a cheap and widely available thing.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Thanks very much for the above summary of this thread, Iritu1021.

When you say "intracellular calcium release", I take you mean the release of calcium from its stores in the cell's endoplasmic reticulum into the cytosol of the cell (rather than release of calcium from the cell out into the extracellular spaces, by pumping calcium out of the cell via the calcium channels on the cellular membrane).



I don't know how this fits into your current discussion, but I've often wondered whether within the neurons in the brain of ME/CFS patients, intracellular calcium levels might be high, due to possibly elevated brain glutamate. Glutamate stimulation of neurons causes high levels of calcium ions to enter these cells — and this calcium influx to the neuron ultimately ends up with excitotoxicity if glutamate levels are very high.

It's been speculated that ME/CFS might involve high levels of extracellular glutamate in the brain, and that these high levels might cause the "wired but tired" hyperaroused feeling of ME/CFS. It has been shown that microglia are chronically activated in ME/CFS, and activated microglia pump out lots of glutamate, so that could be the source of the speculated high brain glutamate in ME/CFS. Though I have not seen any direct evidence for high extracellular glutamate in the brain in ME/CFS, so it's not clear whether or not there are high levels of this neurotransmitter.

But if there is high extracellular glutamate in the brain in ME/CFS, you might expect neurons to have high intracellular levels of calcium.

I have a decent amount of faith in this theory due to some personal observations.

Very early in my illness--when I was only slightly starting to be ill (I had an initial trigger of lyme but the onset was still slow -e.g. I did feel better after initial abx treatment and then symptoms slowly returned) I felt great on phenibut. At the time I didn't really think I was sick or just thought it would be a malaise that passed so I was using the phenibut more recreationally/for anxiety/etc. But incidentally it seemed to help the brain fog and give some kind of "cooling sensation" to the brain, that was hard to describe. I did a lot more productive stuff on it even tho it's a relaxant more than a stimulant. Later I got prescribed gabapentin, which didn't have such a dramatic effect, but felt somewhat similar, in a way more lowkey way.

When I was a little more sick--say about 3-4 months later/the next semester, I started to get hangovers from phenibut, which was new to me. But they weren't exactly like the typical alcohol hangover. They were really weird and hard to describe in normal clinical language. There was no direct headache, and the somatic/tactile aspect of the experience was very strong but if I had tried to describe it I felt like any doctor would consider it a psyschological symptom, not to mention I didn't want to bring up "recreational" drug use.
But the symptoms of this hangover were like a feeling that my brain was overheated, sort of. I mean i didn't have any fever or feeling of overall warmth but it just felt like my cognition was extremely, extremely under duress and had hit an error message or "cannot compute" thing, any and all stimuli would make everything worse.

I looked it up and GABAergics are known to sometimes cause glutamate excitotoxicity as a rebound phenomenon, GABA has the opposite effect but when the receptors "bounce back" from the inhibition, this can happen. Apparently this is the only way certain GABAergics are neurotoxic.

Later in the year, I did some GHB, partially for fun, partially for sleep. Felt actually very nice on it at the right dose, but the same thing--this awful "hangover". no headache, or whatever, but the feeling that my brain was on fire, and that I'd hit some kind of extreme limit (at the time I thought this was caused by permanent brain damage related to the drug, but I think it more exacerbated a tendency present in CFS)

I at times got this effect from stimulants, which I overall avoided after I got sick (my stimulant intolerance after illness is another thread), but took for a very short time for finishing my thesis. (Oddly enough, due to this effect and low tolerance for stims, opioids were the only thing I could use to be relaxed and focused enough to write).

Every time I got this effect, taking gabapentin was the only thing that really helped (well, I didn't want to try phenibut to take the edge off a phenibut hangover, b/c I had very strict rules about not using phenibut on consecutive days). And you may say "well that still sounds like hair of the dog, gabapentin is very similar to phenibut pharmacologically". Well yes, and that's probably part of why it worked , but also no... it doesn't have the gabaergic effects phenibut has, even if it shares the effect on ion channels.
Anyway this "cooling" feeling from gabapentin when I would get these hangovers was dramatic and very nice and beatific. I remember getting this feeling, and coffee didn't help, NAC didn't help, food didn't help, exercise didnt' help (I was more moderately sick so I was still trying dumb shit like that), and I had to go on a date with someone in an hour and thought I wouldn't be able to handle it, until I took a small gabapentin dose and I felt normal, was suddenly able to be talkative, etc. The hangover feeling was like a "storm" that was calmed by gabapentin.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
@debored13 Throughout my life I've had brain states when I had too much intracellular calcium and brain states when I didn't have enough of it - that's why I refer to myself as bipolar. The CFS for me was one long stretch of being depleted in intracellular calcium - except for the initial periods of going on T3/NDT when it would shoot up and later crash. I'm now pretty sure that "the brain on fire" feeling that I had was due to pushing my neurotransmission or metabolism in the setting of calcium depleted mitochondria that weren't able to support it.

Whether the calcium fluctuation itself is due to glutamate, CRH, dopamine, histamine, T3, serotonin, norepinephrine is not as straightforward to me. It seems that for me raising any type of excitatory neurotransmitter by artificial means is bound to backfire.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
After years of thyroid experimentation, I'm actually now starting to see quadrants in myself:

high ATP/ low ER Ca = spacey feeling, ADHD, POTS
high ATP/high Ca = hypomania, overstimulation
low ATP/low Ca = classic CFS -type fatigue
low ATP/ high Ca = unpleasant wired overstimulation
 
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Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9686247

The chemical structure of gabapentin (Neurontin) is derived by addition of a cyclohexyl group to the backbone of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). Gabapentin prevents seizures in a wide variety of models in animals, including generalized tonic-clonic and partial seizures. Gabapentin has no activity at GABAA or GABAB receptors of GABA uptake carriers of brain. Gabapentin interacts with a high-affinity binding site in brain membranes, which has recently been identified as an auxiliary subunit of voltage-sensitive Ca2+ channels. However, the functional correlate of gabapentin binding is unclear and remains under study. Gabapentin crosses several lipid membrane barriers via system L amino acid transporters. In vitro, gabapentin modulates the action of the GABA synthetic enzyme, glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) and the glutamate synthesizing enzyme, branched-chain amino acid transaminase. Results with human and rat brain NMR spectroscopy indicate that gabapentin increases GABA synthesis. Gabapentin increases non-synaptic GABA responses from neuronal tissues in vitro. In vitro, gabapentin reduces the release of several mono-amine neurotransmitters. Gabapentin prevents pain responses in several animal models of hyperalgesia and prevents neuronal death in vitro and in vivo with models of the neurodegenerative disease amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). Gabapentin is also active in models that detect anxiolytic activity. Although gabapentin may have several different pharmacological actions, it appears that modulation of GABA synthesis and glutamate synthesis may be important.
It would be helpful to know which effect exactly it has on calcium channels - whether it closes them or keeps them open longer.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Interesting as I think of the CDR and stress/shock as being caused by high intracellular calcium. I will have to look at the theory on this. But is there really any way to know for sure if one has high intracellular calcium? It seems hard to connect serum levels to this
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Interesting as I think of the CDR and stress/shock as being caused by high intracellular calcium. I will have to look at the theory on this. But is there really any way to know for sure if one has high intracellular calcium? It seems hard to connect serum levels to this

Fact #1. Caffeine increases intracellular calcium release.
Fact #2. Caffeine makes you feel better.

How do you apply the logic test to that?

Also, if intracellular calcium is low, then the speed of neurotransmission can be greatly amplified. And if that's the case even normal levels of glutamate (or any other excitatory neurotransmitter) can become toxic.

To me, it appears far more likely that the real danger in CDR is the fact that the mitochondria are depleted in calcium and as a result of that the cells must rely mainly on the glycolysis to survive.

High intracellular calcium may be a problem for other, more common diseases.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
When I was a little more sick--say about 3-4 months later/the next semester, I started to get hangovers from phenibut, which was new to me. But they weren't exactly like the typical alcohol hangover. They were really weird and hard to describe in normal clinical language. There was no direct headache, and the somatic/tactile aspect of the experience was very strong but if I had tried to describe it I felt like any doctor would consider it a psyschological symptom, not to mention I didn't want to bring up "recreational" drug use.
But the symptoms of this hangover were like a feeling that my brain was overheated, sort of. I mean i didn't have any fever or feeling of overall warmth but it just felt like my cognition was extremely, extremely under duress and had hit an error message or "cannot compute" thing, any and all stimuli would make everything worse. .

You omitted the fact that phenibut also acts on dopamine receptors and antagonizes PEA.

Phenibut (beta-phenyl-GABA): a tranquilizer and nootropic drug.
Lapin I1.
Author information

Abstract
Phenibut (beta-phenyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid HCl) is a neuropsychotropic drug that was discovered and introduced into clinical practice in Russia in the 1960s. It has anxiolytic and nootropic (cognition enhancing) effects. It acts as a GABA-mimetic, primarily at GABA(B) and, to some extent, at GABA(A) receptors. It also stimulates dopamine receptors and antagonizes beta-phenethylamine (PEA), a putative endogenous anxiogenic.