Sugar levels crashing - don't know why

[gregh286]

Funny thing for the 1st year.of this tout i swore i was diabetic. Sugary stuff always seemed to help but the crash after it was hard.
Fasting glucose always 5.0 mmol so was dismissed as a type 2.
The glucose uptake is a different story.
Something goes awry in ampk and uptake ability is lower significantly.
When we push glucose to maybe 9 or 10 mmol we help glucose uptake signficantly.
Temporary relief.

 

[Tammy]

@Bd1984, I would agree with MeSci. I actually doubt you have a blood sugar problem - at least I very much doubt that the coca cola is working through sugar. If you feel better within a minute or two that is too fast for your blood sugar to rise and probably too fast for the caffeine to work.

.
Respectfully...............have to disagree with you ................when I had hypoglycemic episodes........didn't take much time at all for me to feel better after eating something. Also...........a friend of mine's Dr. gave him sugar pills to take when his blood sugar dropped too low from too much insulin.............he recovered quickly with those sugar pills.

 

[Tammy]

@Bd1984...........I doubt that your Dr. would have the test kits available for testing the cortisol levels via saliva...........but you could ask him to see if he knows about it. Otherwise I would google saliva test kit for cortisol levels UK. Doctors can order a morning cortisol level via blood...............but from my research the test kits using saliva are better and your levels can be tested at 4 different times of the day.

 

[Hip]

when I had hypoglycemic episodes........didn't take much time at all for me to feel better after eating something.

I wouldn't have thought that you felt better in 60 seconds though, as @Bd1984 does when gulping Coca-Cola. That seems too fast for the benefits to be due to sugar or caffeine.

The only thing that can 'bring me back from feeling like death' is when I take six big gulps of coca-cola. Within 60 seconds of lying down on my bed, I'll be standing upright again thinking why does that have such a transformative affect.

Does you get the same effect from diet and caffeine-free coke? If so, that rules out the sugar and caffeine, which are very unlikely to play a role anyway.

Then what about other equally fizzy carbonated drinks, like say fizzy orange juice? Or just fizzy soda water? Do they have the same effect when you take six big gulps?


Could the gas from the carbonated drink simply be bloating and pressurizing your stomach, and in that way causing some sort of rapid physiological effect on the nervous system? Just an idea.

 

[Valentijn]

...when I had hypoglycemic episodes........didn't take much time at all for me to feel better after eating something.

Was the hypoglycemia and recovery documented?

My fiance has Type I diabetes, and it takes several minutes for dextrose (glucose) tablets to start to take effect, and might take up to half an hour for him to fully recover if his blood sugar had gone low enough for him get shaky. Based on research, it looks like oral dextrose starts to cause blood sugar to rise at about 15 minutes, with a peak at 30 minutes.

The taste of sugar can itself trigger changes, in preparation of the body dealing with the actual sugar. I think it's more likely that people who feel immediately better are experiencing a physiological response to the taste of sugar, rather than the direct impact of the sugar itself.

 

[MeSci]

I wouldn't have thought that you felt better in 60 seconds though, as @Bd1984 does when gulping Coca-Cola. That seems too fast for the benefits to be due to sugar or caffeine.

Does you get the same effect from diet and caffeine-free coke? If so, that rules out the sugar and caffeine, which are very unlikely to play a role anyway.

Then what about other equally fizzy carbonated drinks, like say fizzy orange juice? Or just fizzy soda water? Do they have the same effect when you take six big gulps?

Could the gas from the carbonated drink simply be bloating and pressurizing your stomach, and in that way causing some sort of rapid physiological effect on the nervous system? Just an idea.

That's an interesting idea. I sometimes find that soon after I drink some sodium bicarbonate solution, my energy and strength increase significantly. My assumption is that this is due to the intended consequence of reducing blood acidity. It's not instant - more like about ten to fifteen minutes. It doesn't always happen.

But the pH of cola appears to be very low (acidic) according to a quick internet search. Maybe that would account for any improvement in symptoms for people whose blood pH is too high, as theorised by @alex3619 for when we are not active. (Whereas we are too acidic when active) Hope I got that right.

 

[alex3619]

Acidic when active, alkaline when passive, is implied by the muscle research. So acidic or alkaline foods might help at different times. I suspect this has a lot to do with operating below the anaerobic threshold though. Sustained activity will probably push to acidic however, even if the anaerobic threshold is not crossed. Acid is a byproduct of energy utilization.

I love soda water. Its one of the few things that slows or stops my sore throat, but I have to keep sipping it. I have not noticed any improved energy in my case though.

I had some severe hypoglycemic attacks in the late 90s. I think I responded very rapidly to almost any food. I no longer recall the timing though, just the impression. For most of them I never measured my blood sugar ... I didn't want to take time out from treating it to run a test.

One confounding issue is that the brain stem might regulate blood vessel dilation, an autonomic function, in only seconds. This might turn out to be mainly a brain thing if the response is very rapid.

 

[MeSci]

I love soda water. Its one of the few things that slows or stops my sore throat, but I have to keep sipping it. I have not noticed any improved energy in my case though.

What do you mean by soda water? In the UK it usually refers to a specific type of sweetened soft drink which may be mixed with an alcoholic drink (e.g. whisky and soda). In the US I think it means almost any soft drink, although not juice. Ah - here is a US definition.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

.
Respectfully...............have to disagree with you ................when I had hypoglycemic episodes........didn't take much time at all for me to feel better after eating something. Also...........a friend of mine's Dr. gave him sugar pills to take when his blood sugar dropped too low from too much insulin.............he recovered quickly with those sugar pills.

Yes but, respectfully, I agree with Valentijn's figures. It takes several minutes for enough glucose to cross the stomach wall to actually change the blood sugar. We feel better when we eat something when really hungry or drink something when really thirsty or whatever because of neural reflexes getting primed in advance of the actual change. So feeling better in 60 seconds does not rule out the possibility that blood sugar was low and then rose but it pretty much rules out a rise in blood sugar as the cause of feeling better.

 

[Hip]

That's an interesting idea. I sometimes find that soon after I drink some sodium bicarbonate solution, my energy and strength increase significantly.

The other idea that occurred to me was that carbon dioxide (CO2) gas dissolved in the Coca Cola carbonated drink could be quickly dispersing into the bloodstream, thereby having a very rapid physiological effect — the body is sensitive to, and acts quickly upon, small changes in blood CO2 level.


The effects of blood CO2 changes:

➤ Increased blood CO2 potently dilates the cerebral blood vessels, significantly increasing brain blood flow.

A few years ago I was doing some experiments (alternative link) with breathing gulps of pure CO2 gas, with the idea that the potent cerebral vasodilating effects of CO2 would remedy the reduced brain blood flow found in ME/CFS.

Although I observed no benefits from taking quick gulps of pure CO2, it could possibly help other ME/CFS patients, and those with orthostatic intolerance problems.

Indeed, there is now some research investigating CO2 as a treatment for orthostatic intolerance in ME/CFS patients (in this research, they are increasing the level of CO2 in the room air, to see if this mitigates orthostatic intolerance).

I am hesitant to post my own CO2 breathing method on this forum, in case breathing gulps of pure CO2 has some adverse effects; but it is easy enough to make pure CO2 gas by just mixing some vinegar and bicarbonate of soda in a bag — the gas that is produced from the bubbling is CO2. I had no ill effects from breathing CO2 directly from the bag (although it does instantly make me feel light headed, but this immediately passes as soon as you breath out the CO2). But I imagine it could have negative consequences in some patients. Though low levels of CO2 are used medically for their vasodilating action.


➤ Carbon dioxide also facilitates the release of oxygen from hemoglobin, and the absorption of oxygen into the tissues (this is known as the Bohr effect). Lack of CO2 in the blood means less tissue oxygenation, and increased CO2 means more tissue oxygenation.

 

[South]

@gregh286
I have had years of my life that had many episodes of blood sugar crashes, and paleo wasn't helpful. What is helpful is starches mixed in a meal with fats -- this combo is very helpful in stabilizing my blood sugar for many hours after that meal, with no subsequent crashes at all. (I eat protein too, but the presence or absence of it in one meal hasn't made any difference in the hours after that meal for me).

Eating sugar, even fruit, makes matters worse for me. So paleo, with it emphasis on fruit, vegetables, and meat but almost no starches, was a disaster for me. Maybe this idea fits with the other theory you posted?

 

[gregh286]

Hi @South....expand on a blood sugar crash?
Your blood sugar is dropping below 4.0 mmol?
My theory is low glucose uptake in cells due to AMPK deregulation.....not related to diabetes etc.
BUT when we boost our blood glucose in a CFS crash we are essentially helping the uptake issue in cells as we have twice as much circulating serum glucose temporarily.

High GI carb meals seem to work better for me than sugary drinks....
So in one hand paleo is good as in theory starvation keeps AMPK activated...but on other hand you cant improve your serum glucose.

 

[MeSci]

Eating sugar, even fruit, makes matters worse for me. So paleo, with it emphasis on fruit, vegetables, and meat but almost no starches, was a disaster for me. Maybe this idea fits with the other theory you posted?

But maybe more starch than we thought according to this thread.

 

[alex3619]

What do you mean by soda water?

Unsweetened carbonated water.

 

[alex3619]

➤ Carbon dioxide also facilitates the release of oxygen from hemoglobin, and the absorption of oxygen into the tissues (this is known as the Bohr effect). Lack of CO2 in the blood means less tissue oxygenation, and increased CO2 means more tissue oxygenation.

This last point I have always considered very important. Enough that I have asked in the past if severe ME patients on oxygen should not be on oxygen with a rebreather bag or something to raise CO2 at the same time.

 

[Hip]

This last point I have always considered very important. Enough that I have asked in the past if severe ME patients on oxygen should not be on oxygen with a rebreather bag or something to raise CO2 at the same time.

It could indeed be a very important point. I read years ago that CO2 was going to be added to medical oxygen supplies to treat certain conditions, so as to promote tissue oxygenation, but I forget the details.

Although if Dr Cheney's ideas on "oxygen toxicity" in ME/CFS are valid, then possibility extra oxygen in the tissues may also have negative as well as beneficial effects in ME/CFS, due to increased reactive oxygen species creation.



Incidentally, one way to raise your blood CO2 is by the Buteyko method, a breathing technique that involves taking more shallow breaths, and/or fewer breaths. By reducing the volume of your breath in this way, you reduce the amount of CO2 expelled, and so increase blood CO2.

By contrast, anyone who is prone to hyperventilation may have reduced blood CO2 as a consequence.

 

[South]

expand on a blood sugar crash?

By "blood sugar crash" I meant, for me personally, a sudden onset (as in, one minute from not having it to having it) of muscle weakness, lightheadedness, extreme craving for salt and sweets, and sweating. That's the blood sugar crash I used to get (rarely do anymore). I don't have a meter to know the actual numbers.

Elsewhere I've read that certain people can have these symptoms from any sudden change in blood sugar even if the change is from too-high suddenly down to a midlevel, so in theory, I could have been experiencing a sudden swing like this without ever going down to ultra low blood sugar numbers. I don't care what the label is. Those symptoms are scary and mimic exactly what mainstream lists as symptoms of hypoglycemia. I've learned over the years what diet for me, personally, works to avoid those frightening symptoms.

Ten years ago I had that experience at least once a month. These days only a couple times per year.

 

[gregh286]

Hi @South.
Ok thanks. Would be interesting to see if your blood sugar is actually dropping or its something else.that triggers that has the feeling of hypoglcemia.

 

[MeSci]

By "blood sugar crash" I meant, for me personally, a sudden onset (as in, one minute from not having it to having it) of muscle weakness, lightheadedness, extreme craving for salt and sweets, and sweating. That's the blood sugar crash I used to get (rarely do anymore). I don't have a meter to know the actual numbers.

Elsewhere I've read that certain people can have these symptoms from any sudden change in blood sugar even if the change is from too-high suddenly down to a midlevel, so in theory, I could have been experiencing a sudden swing like this without ever going down to ultra low blood sugar numbers. I don't care what the label is. Those symptoms are scary and mimic exactly what mainstream lists as symptoms of hypoglycemia. I've learned over the years what diet for me, personally, works to avoid those frightening symptoms.

Ten years ago I had that experience at least once a month. These days only a couple times per year.

I see that your signature says that you have low blood pressure. Have you checked your blood pressure when you feel that you may have hypoglycemia?

Although you have improved your own health through diet, knowing possible causes of symptoms could help others, especially those with ME who want to avoid doctors where possible!

 

[JamBob]

Yes but, respectfully, I agree with Valentijn's figures. It takes several minutes for enough glucose to cross the stomach wall to actually change the blood sugar. We feel better when we eat something when really hungry or drink something when really thirsty or whatever because of neural reflexes getting primed in advance of the actual change. So feeling better in 60 seconds does not rule out the possibility that blood sugar was low and then rose but it pretty much rules out a rise in blood sugar as the cause of feeling better.

I agree with Jonathan and Valentijn's statements. I have Type 1 diabetes and it takes a good 15 minutes after drinking glucose/sugary drinks to see a minimal rise in my blood sugar (perhaps from 3.7 to 4.0) and a good 30 minutes to stop the sweating and shaky feeling. I can feel out of sorts for hours after an episode.

I often wonder (as we get a lot of these posts about feelings of low blood sugar) whether the symptoms might be arising from dysautonomia (which I also have) as the shakiness, sweating, feeling lightheaded and craving for sweets/salt are all symptoms of dysautonomia too.

A blood sugar monitor is a good way to tell the difference. I used to mistake my dysautonomia for hypoglycaemia and sometimes the only way to tell is to test my blood sugars.