Study showed no serious side effects of Lightning Process

[deleder2k]

Daily debate about ME in Norway's largest newspaper. Been going on for a month or so.

By Live Landmark. Masters in management, and a Lightning Process instructor.


Lightning Process (LP) is not a treatment for illness, but a mental training program.

Trude Wiberg writes in Aftenposten on October 13 about the despair of living with ME. As a former patient, I know how painful it is. She also writes about bad experience with Lightning Process (LP). It's sad, and I want to take this opportunity to clarify: LP is no treatment for illness.

LP is a mental training program. Not everyone benefits from the course, but nine out of ten recommend LP one year after course. The figures are based on a survey of all participants over a year. 226 people participated, and 196 people answered.


Three scientific studies

Three scientific studies have been conducted on LP, two of which are published in international journal. A study looked at the experience of young people with CFS / ME. Seven out of nine youth experienced a physical and mental recovery after LP, one had no effect, and one felt guilty of failing to succeed and therefore felt worse.

• Live Landmark wrote this article about ME in Aftenposten earlier this year: Norway has a ME epidemic

Another study found that those who benefit from LP get an "aha" experience from the course, they manage to use the methods and they have a trust relationship with the instructor. Those who do not benefit from LP have not experienced this.

The latest study is a randomized controlled study, the very gold standard in research. Hundreds of youths with CFS / ME participated. One group received standard treatment, the other received standard treatment plus LP. The group who participated in LP had a significant improvement. The study showed no serious side effects.

Change your own state

LP is knowledge of thoughts, emotions and behavior along with basic stress physiology. Participants are trained to engage in positive thinking patterns and to turn off physical stress activation. It is a practical method to influence oneself and bodily reflexes

• Live Landmark was one of the authors of this article about ME in Journal of the Norwegian Medical Association: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Lightning Process Experience Fagfolk har sammenlignet deler av LP med kognitiv adferdsterapi, men LP er ikke behandling. LP har et kroppslig fokus og oppmerksomhet på å fremkalle gode sinnstilstander. LP handler om å endre egen tilstand, som er noe annet enn å ta seg sammen og tenke positivt.

Professionals have compared parts of LP with cognitive behavioral therapy, but LP is not treatment. LP has a bodily focus, and it also has attention changing your own state of mind, which is nothing like getting yourself together and thinking positively.


Participants have access to guidance and follow-up for at least six months and are encouraged to contact the instructor if needed. Having said that, my heart bleeds for those at home with an ME diagnosis, and I cross fingers for a treatment for those who need a medical solution.

Quick translation by Google and I. If something is unclear please ask. She and CBT doctors has bashed out when the Norwegian ME association has referenced their own survey. They won't accept it, since it is highly biased. I can agree with that, but then she uses her own survey. She charges 1500 quid per LP course. Of course she has a major financial interest in this, and she is not at all objective. What about her claims about no serious side effects seen in those studies? I think she is referencing to the SMILE study, one study from Reme (connected to Harvard), and another small study which I believe to be unpublished. Impressed @Jonathan Edwards? @Tom Kindlon ?

I find it deeply disturbing that she doesn't say that many patients have become much worse after LP. As an instructor she knows this. She should at least mention that patients do get sick. She refutes this because LP is only a training programme. How can you crash and wind up in a bed after a training programme?

If some doctor/professional wants to respond I can help with translating from English in to Norwegian. There is also possible to comment under the article, but it is a requirement that one register and that one uses a full name when commenting.

Source: https://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/debatt/i/zWWAr/Studie-viste-ingen-alvorlige-bivirkninger-etter-Lightning-Process--Live-Landmark&edit-text=

 

[A.B.]

LP is no treatment for illness.

The ban on promoting LP as treatment for illness seems to be working.

LP is a mental training program.

Hmm...

A study looked at the experience of young people with CFS / ME. Seven out of nine youth experienced a physical and mental recovery after LP, one had no effect, and one felt guilty of failing to succeed and therefore felt worse.

I wonder what the relevant authorities would say. To me it seems that it's still being promoted as treatment, just not called a treatment.

 

[anni66]

Daily debate about ME in Norway's largest newspaper. Been going on for a month or so.



Quick translation by Google and I. If something is unclear please ask. She and CBT doctors has bashed out when the Norwegian ME association has referenced their own survey. They won't accept it, since it is highly biased. I can agree with that, but then she uses her own survey. She charges 1500 quid per LP course. Of course she has a major financial interest in this, and she is not at all objective. What about her claims about no serious side effects seen in those studies? I think she is referencing to the SMILE study, one study from Reme (connected to Harvard), and another small study which I believe to be unpublished. Impressed @Jonathan Edwards? @Tom Kindlon ?

I find it deeply disturbing that she doesn't say that many patients have become much worse after LP. As an instructor she knows this. She should at least mention that patients do get sick. She refutes this because LP is only a training programme. How can you crash and wind up in a bed after a training programme?

If some doctor/professional wants to respond I can help with translating from English in to Norwegian. There is also possible to comment under the article, but it is a requirement that one register and that one uses a full name when commenting.

Source: https://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/debatt/i/zWWAr/Studie-viste-ingen-alvorlige-bivirkninger-etter-Lightning-Process--Live-Landmark&edit-text=

https://translate.google.no/transla...r-Lightning-Process--Live-Landmark&edit-text=

What criteria is used for diagnosis in Norway? For chronic fatigue LP could have some positive effect. For ME with PEM as defining feature i cannot understand how it could work- it would seem more likely to do harm

 

[markielock]

When I read "Lightning Process (LP) is not a treatment for illness, but a mental training program", I thought "Do make up your mind. The definition changes each time I read about it!" .

It can feel like the LP marketing team tries to heavily imply a different 'best case scenario' depending on who they are marketing to that day.

Slightly more controversial view from me: if it's so great, teach the process freely. Make it more financially attainable. Perhaps it would stop desperate people from experiencing placebo instead of accepting that they just wasted £1500.00 of benefits money they excruciatingly saved up for (there's no evidence of that, that's just my own perspective/bias).

If it's doing such a great job, open it up and let people pick it apart. Surely if you had something that helped people with such a horrific problem, you'd want to do that. I would. Maybe I'm just nice, who knows lol

 

[deleder2k]

@anni66, The Norwegian Directorate of Health recommends Canadian criteria, so that is definitely a good point. She refers to the SMILE study where all sorts of tired kids were included.

 

[Inara]

"Lightning Process" - sounds like a religion or esoterics...And its costs are comparable to those for a healing Guru in Brazil or so...

(I do admit I don't know what LP is - and the story behind it - and therefore I don't judge it at this point. I shall get informed. These are just my spontaneous thoughts. But, honestly, the sound of it scares me off, and it would even do so if I were healthy. No offense meant.)

 

[Inara]

Ok, I got informed...Opinion built...If I read "trademarked" I know what it's about. (I worked in that field once.)

In my opinion, they offer nothing someone can learn for oneself by listening to the body and observing, plus some knowledge about biochemistry and principles about how the body works, plus some thinking.

Thanks, by the way, for this thread! I learned something new.

 

[Seven7]

You can denounce it, i have heard they cannot promote as treatment. I think this is rebranding to bypass the ruling against it being used as treatment. So the rebranding has to be brought to the attention of authorities.

 

[anni66]

@anni66, The Norwegian Directorate of Health recommends Canadian criteria, so that is definitely a good point. She refers to the SMILE study where all sorts of tired kids were included.

SMILE study has a lot of idiosyncracies so it would depend on the type of reference being made.
Any study with no objective outcome criteria is prone to bias and potential placebo effect.

 

[Inara]

I am a little shocked, I admit. And to call it "treatment"...then to rebrand it...and for this PRICE.

I won't deny that learning one's body language will help in some situations (it would be dumb to deny that, I believe most of us have good experiences with that), and I think it's important - but this kind of profit making...this kind of using people...it's always disgusting to me. (Again, just my personal opinion.)

 

[markielock]

I'm still reeling from a recent (I think Australian) news piece promoting the LP. They opened with the creator of the LP playing guitar and then discussing his hand injury, which a doctor said he wouldn't fully recover from. He then went on to say how that event put him on the path to developing the LP and how his method of opening himself up to suggestion effectively opened up the ability to cure his hand. But THEN the narrator of the piece quickly mentioned, something in the vein of, "Upon a second opinion from another doctor, it was then clear his hand could be cured". As if that was all the evidence they needed to prove it worked.

I just remember going "He got a second opinion!! From a doctor! It likely meant the first doctor(s) missed something. Gaaah!". As far as I could tell, that's all that happened. No further evidence to suggest his process was the instrumental factor as to why the doctor was able to give such a positive second opinion. Again, it feels like the message "It was the LP!" was supposed to be implied to those desperate enough to hear it but open enough to interpretation as to not get called out on it.

Talk about confirmation bias being the foundation of your entire protocol.

I can't seem to find the article/video, I'll edit this post if I do.

 

[NelliePledge]

Sorry @markielock i hope you don't find the video. I don't think my iPad could withstand being thrown across the room the guy is sickening

 

[Sallyagerharris]

I realised after reading loads of comments on Lightning Process that it was in fact Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP). As I like to understand what’s happening ... if I can ... rather than stuff being done to me I trained in NLP and could have easily set myself up as a person who cures except I wouldn’t have cured but temporarily brainwashed. Even during NLP training ME was mentioned and I was asked what was it I was doing that I didn’t like doing when I became sick and then told that I now didn’t “do” ME.

Adrenaline surged and for a short time ... days ... ME was slightly hidden ...

NLP is great for some phobias, confidence building and other stuff such as public speaking where a quick fix is needed. I learnt how to “capture” and “replay” extreme emotional positive experiences. But it is all temporary but useful.

I’m furious at how LP is being used with people being lured in ... I warned other people training in LP about ME but I think they just thought I wasn’t doing it properly ...

I must re-engage with the people that I met now about 8 years ago on the training course.

Sorry if I’ve wittered on and hope this makes some sense.

Sally

 

[Inara]

I’m furious at how LP is being used with people being lured in ... I warned other people training in LP about ME but I think they just thought I wasn’t doing it properly ...

That's the point for me, too. Actually, anybody is free to do what he/she thinks is best. But most people are easily manipulated and listen to empty promises, especially when there is a dire need. It's about creating the illusion of caring and helping whilst it's all about money. That makes me furious, too.

That thought just popped up - I could say the same about any "psycho therapy"; sure, it's not trademarked. But the promises and methods are quite similar, and if it doesn't work, they say you're the fault. A psychiatrist actually once said to me, only psycho therapy will help me which strongly reminded me of religions. The underlying methods are the same, I think. I said goodbye to any religion long ago, and this now includes such approaches.

Still, these therapies and processes might help people. Everybody's own choice.

 

[Hilary]

Well I'm an experienced counsellor/psychotherapist and my methods are absolutely not similar nor do I make any promises about outcome since I'm not omniscient. Therapy may or may not help the client but whatever the outcome, I would never 'blame' them.
I should add that I have done LP which is how I know it is nothing like the counselling I offer. It was a waste of money and there are risks attached.

 

[Inara]

Sorry, Hilary, no offense meant to you. But I made so bad experiences...Therapy will not heal ME.
Therefore I say: Some might find help for their issues.

 

[Hilary]

Hi @Inara - don't worry, none taken! Sorry if I was bit crispy in my response

And I'm very sorry you've had bad experiences. I completely agree, therapy can't heal ME. The best an empathetic therapist might do for some people, is help them come to terms and cope with its impact, nothing more.