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Study calls for ALL organophosphate pesticides to be banned (OPs are linked to ME/CFS and GWI)

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
@Wolfcub

Organic food also uses pesticides. Some is simply grown by having a no spray the area which is surrounded by conventional, so that the conventional area forms a barrier against insects.

Otherwise, an organic farm uses pesticides that were around before about World War I. There’s a list of approved pesticides for organic farms, those have to be applied in much larger quantites then the new stuff. There nothing safe, there ain’t nothing free.
 

Mel9

Senior Member
Messages
995
Location
NSW Australia
@Wolfcub

Organic food also uses pesticides. Some is simply grown by having a no spray the area which is surrounded by conventional, so that the conventional area forms a barrier against insects.

Otherwise, an organic farm uses pesticides that were around before about World War I. There’s a list of approved pesticides for organic farms, those have to be applied in much larger quantites then the new stuff. There nothing safe, there ain’t nothing free.



I just checked the Australian Certified Organic Standard. The list of allowed farming inputs does not include any of the pesticides mentioned above.

It does allow sulfur, copper products, insect baits, biological control bacteria, sterilised male insects, vegetable oils etc.

In Australia the standards are strictly maintained with inspectors checking farm management.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Pesticide residues on food are one source of organophosphate exposure to contend with, but there are several non-dietary sources of exposure as well, such as garden pesticide usage (either from your own or from a neighbor's garden); pesticide spraying on indoor houseplants; pesticide spraying in parks, recreational grounds, golf courses, grass verges of streets, etc; agricultural pesticide spraying in farms, which may affect nearby homes. Organophosphates can be absorbed via the skin or lungs, not just via oral consumption.
 
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lafarfelue

Senior Member
Messages
433
Location
Australia
Pesticide residues on food are one source of organophosphate exposure, but there are several non-dietary sources of exposure as well, such as garden pesticide usage (either from your own or from a neighbor's garden); pesticide spraying on indoor houseplants, pesticide spraying in parks, recreational grounds, golf courses, grass verges of streets, etc; agricultural pesticide spraying in farms, which may affect nearby homes. Organophosphates can be absorbed via the skin or lungs, not just via oral consumption.
Cut flowers (such as from a florist or bunches found at supermarkets) also have been found to have high levels of pesticides. And these regularly make their way right inside people's homes and sick rooms.
 

antares4141

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Truth or consequences, nm
“"Organophosphates are added to aircraft engine oils" Why would anyone do this???”

The reason is not to make the engine oil into a pesticide, the reason is to make an engine oil that lubricates the machinery under all the conditions it is exposed to. In other words it’s a very high performance oil, which is a big part of the reason why airplanes don’t fall out of the sky. Jet turbines are now so reliable that we allow planes with only two engines to fly clear across the world. Compare to piston engine intercontinentals flying with four yet more dangerous.

But yeah there should either be a cabin air circuit that can’t be contaminated by engine oil, or at least a filter and an indicator to detect and catch it if it must be designed that way. The earliest jets and now the 787 use a separate compressor for the cabin air.

Something just doesn't add up. On one side I did find an article that said it was an additive and not a byproduct of something else.

But on the other side they had the attitude that the concentrations are very low. Significantly so. Such that it would be unlikely to "poison" somebody.

So my thinking is OK, so if that is the case, than whatever beneficial effect they "OP's" have, as far as lubrication goes, would also be inconsequential?

And still. Putting a neurotoxin in motor oil!!!! WTF??????
 

antares4141

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Truth or consequences, nm
Pesticide residues on food are one source of organophosphate exposure, but there are several non-dietary sources of exposure as well, such as garden pesticide usage (either from your own or from a neighbor's garden); pesticide spraying on indoor houseplants; pesticide spraying in parks, recreational grounds, golf courses, grass verges of streets, etc; agricultural pesticide spraying in farms, which may affect nearby homes. Organophosphates can be absorbed via the skin or lungs, not just via oral consumption.
25 years ago I didn't know anybody who had animals, who didn't spray their own home or have it done. And their yard and they dipped their dogs. At least I did. Until I found out boric acid was 10 times more effective and 100 times easier to use. And I didn't have to do any of those things.
 

Wolfcub

Senior Member
Messages
7,089
Location
SW UK
I think in our general life and in engineering, there are going to be a lot of toxins, some of which will be neurotoxins. For instance, even the old steam trains produced arsenic, and certainly the rail "ties" contain it, as a result of wood preserver. It may not be a deliberate toxification of motor oil, but rather a lubricant which happens to be....a neurotoxin
 

antares4141

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Truth or consequences, nm
I think in our general life and in engineering, there are going to be a lot of toxins, some of which will be neurotoxins. For instance, even the old steam trains produced arsenic, and certainly the rail "ties" contain it, as a result of wood preserver. It may not be a deliberate toxification of motor oil, but rather a lubricant which happens to be....a neurotoxin

I've been painfully aware of how toxic rr ties are since my idiot neighbor made a bon fire and threw his on top.

Had to evacuate my home but it took me 20 minutes because I play musical batteries between my three different vehicles and had both my batteries in my camper. Which takes a while to get road ready.

And every time he burns his trash I get exposed to all the toxic fumes from the plastic he burns.

Just isn't fair. I move out to the desert to avoid toxic exposures and have the good luck to move right next door to someone like that.

And the icing on the cake is the prevailing winds are s. to n. and he is s. of me. So I rarely miss an exposure.

I think they put creosote in those things also?

I remember when I had my lawn business, a customer on the beach, barrier island, house on stilts. He had a shallow well that wasn't functional. Right next to the house. So I got it working and found out the reason. You could see creosote on the surface of the water where it puddled. Just like gasoline. It colored the surface.

When I think about all the docs, and houses that use these, makes me cringe.
 

Wolfcub

Senior Member
Messages
7,089
Location
SW UK
I think they put creosote in those things also?

Yes they do.

I wonder if it would be possible for you to ask your neighbour if he can let you know before he makes a bonfire? It's not the best answer. He shouldn't be burning those things where there are other houses and people. He shouldn't be burning those things anyway. But at least you would get some warning and might be able to get out of the house?
Easier said than done for many people with ME/CFS....I realise.
 

antares4141

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Truth or consequences, nm
We did talk and came to a compromise. He won't burn anymore creosote logs. I didn't want to push my luck with the household trash, or bon fires without the toxic materials. It's not often I have to camp out down on the other end of the street. It still sucks though cause you are going to get some exposure before you get out.

The creosote logs I got hit really bad by. You can never tell with this illness but it seemed like the effects lasted for months. After the fire, I came back to my place and everything had a creosote odor to it.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
We did talk and came to a compromise. He won't burn anymore creosote logs. I didn't want to push my luck with the household trash, or bon fires without the toxic materials. It's not often I have to camp out down on the other end of the street. It still sucks though cause you are going to get some exposure before you get out.

The creosote logs I got hit really bad by. You can never tell with this illness but it seemed like the effects lasted for months. After the fire, I came back to my place and everything had a creosote odor to it.


Something just doesn't add up. On one side I did find an article that said it was an additive and not a byproduct of something else.

But on the other side they had the attitude that the concentrations are very low. Significantly so. Such that it would be unlikely to "poison" somebody.

So my thinking is OK, so if that is the case, than whatever beneficial effect they "OP's" have, as far as lubrication goes, would also be inconsequential?

And still. Putting a neurotoxin in motor oil!!!! WTF??????

It’s not a regular motor oil, it’s used for jet turbines only. I don’t believe it is sold at retail. One could probably look up aviation turbine oil, it’s ingredients, and ask on an engineering forum if the organophosphates are a neccessary additive or a contaminant.

Many common things are poisonous, they are usually confined tonplaces where we are not exposed to them. e.g your lead acid car battery. The turbine oil isn’t supposed to get into the airplane cabin, that’s another issue.
 

antares4141

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Truth or consequences, nm
It’s not a regular motor oil, it’s used for jet turbines only. I don’t believe it is sold at retail. One could probably look up aviation turbine oil, it’s ingredients, and ask on an engineering forum if the organophosphates are a neccessary additive or a contaminant.

Many common things are poisonous, they are usually confined tonplaces where we are not exposed to them. e.g your lead acid car battery. The turbine oil isn’t supposed to get into the airplane cabin, that’s another issue.
Most of the papers I looked at were written for people with a college level or higher in chemistry. But best I can tell is organophosphate esters are products from a multitude of different types of compounds made from phosphates.
So yes there are organophosphates, but I don't think they are the same as an insecticide like dursban. or malathion. Which is what was bothering me. Not to say they are any less toxic. Just probably not the same type of compound?? My best guess. In the early 60's they used pcb's and I think that is the same issue. PCB'S can be found in a multitude of different compounds?? I also read they use or used organophosphates in fire retardants. But I doubt they were the same thing as the active ingredients in dursban.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
What I would like to see are some lawsuits brought against the pesticide companies. We need to have some test cases in the courts.

As the evidence is mounting that for example prenatal organophosphate exposure increases the risk of autism, I'd like to see parents with severely autistic children suing the chemical companies that manufacture organophosphate pesticides.

It costs a lot of money to look after a severely autistic person for their whole life, and thus courts should be awarding compensation — paid for my the pesticide manufacturers if liability can be proven — which covers these lifetime care costs.
 
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lafarfelue

Senior Member
Messages
433
Location
Australia
What I would like to see are some lawsuits brought against the pesticide companies. We need to have some test cases in the courts.

One lawsuit was recently determined in the USA

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling

Monsanto ordered to pay $289m as jury rules weedkiller caused man's cancer
Court finds in favor of Dewayne Johnson, first person to take Roundup maker to trial

Monsanto suffered a major blow with a jury ruling that the company was liable for a terminally ill man’s cancer, awarding him $289m in damages.

Dewayne Johnson, a 46-year-old former groundskeeper, won a huge victory in the landmark case on Friday, with the jury determining that Monsanto’s Roundup weedkiller caused his cancer and that the corporation failed to warn him of the health hazards from exposure. The jury further found that Monsanto “acted with malice or oppression”.

Johnson’s lawyers argued over the course of a month-long trial in San Francisco that Monsanto had “fought science” for years and targeted academics who spoke up about possible health risks of the herbicide product. Johnson was the first person to take the agrochemical corporation to trial over allegations that the chemical sold under the brand Roundup causes cancer.

In the extraordinary verdict, which Monsanto said it intends to appeal, the jury ruled that the company was responsible for “negligent failure” and knew or should have known that its product was “dangerous”.

“We were finally able to show the jury the secret, internal Monsanto documents proving that Monsanto has known for decades that ... Roundup could cause cancer,” Johnson’s lawyer Brent Wisner said in a statement. The verdict, he added, sent a “message to Monsanto that its years of deception regarding Roundup is over and that they should put consumer safety first over profits”.

Speaking in San Francisco on Friday, Johnson said that the jury’s verdict is far bigger than his lawsuit. He said he hopes the case bolsters the thousands of similar lawsuits pending against the company and brings national attention to the issue.

Johnson’s case was particularly significant because a judge allowed his team to present scientific arguments. The dispute centered on glyphosate, which is the world’s most widely used herbicide. The verdict came a month after a federal judge ruled that cancer survivors or relatives of the deceased could bring similar claims forward in another trial.

During the lengthy trial, the plaintiff’s attorneys brought forward internal emails from Monsanto executives that they said demonstrated how the corporation repeatedly ignored experts’ warnings, sought favorable scientific analyses and helped to “ghostwrite” research that encouraged continued usage.

Monsanto has long argued that Roundup is safe and not linked to cancer and presented studies during trial that countered the research and testimony submitted by Johnson’s team. The herbicide is registered in 130 countries and approved for use on more than 100 crops, but in 2015, the World Health Organization’s international agency for research on cancer (IARC) classified glyphosate as “probably carcinogenic to humans”, triggering a wave of legal and legislative challenges.

After the trial, Scott Partridge, the vice-president of Monsanto, rejected any link between glyphosate and cancer, insisting the “verdict doesn’t change the four-plus decades of safe use and science behind the product”.

(Partial copy of article, read the rest through the link)
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
Most of the papers I looked at were written for people with a college level or higher in chemistry. But best I can tell is organophosphate esters are products from a multitude of different types of compounds made from phosphates.
So yes there are organophosphates, but I don't think they are the same as an insecticide like dursban. or malathion. Which is what was bothering me. Not to say they are any less toxic. Just probably not the same type of compound?? My best guess. In the early 60's they used pcb's and I think that is the same issue. PCB'S can be found in a multitude of different compounds?? I also read they use or used organophosphates in fire retardants. But I doubt they were the same thing as the active ingredients in dursban.

The sad thing is that PCBs did a great job for their intended use, cooling high power electrical transformers without being combustible, corrosive, or breaking down over time. The problem was that once you have them in a zillion places you get leaks, and in a biological system they're a poison. So you could have PCBs that leaked out in 1955 still in river mud today. The stuff was so good (doesn't break down) it's bad (builds up in the food chain, lasts 100+ years). R12 refrigerant was like that - outstandingly good at doing its job, also outstandingly good a destroying high altitude ozone.

I have no knowledge of organophosphates beyond the category name, and that the category covers (probably different) molecules all the way from pesticides to super-oil additives.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I have no knowledge of organophosphates beyond the category name

Well, the novichok, sarin and VX chemical warfare agents, which are the world's most potent agents, are all organophosphates. So that may be one way to introduce the subject of organophosphates. Of course the organophosphates chemicals used as pesticide are much less lethal than these warfare agents; but organophosphates are still a nasty class of chemicals.

My own ME/CFS arose not long after a chronic organophosphate poisoning I experienced in my own home. Someone spilt a large amount of a gardener's organophosphate pesticide called malathion in my house, and being unaware of the dangers, did not clean it up properly.

Malathion has the unfortunately property that its breakdown products are 1000 times more toxic than malathion itself (with respect to their cholinesterase inhibition). So that means that if you use or spill any malathion in an indoor environment like a home, where its breakdown products cannot escape into the wind or rain, and so remain in the home for long periods, you can get horribly poisoned as I did; the symptoms I had from this chronic OP poisoning were really dire. So that was my "education" on the horrible effects of organophosphates.

Malathion has since been banned in the EU, but not yet in the US.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
What I would like to see are some lawsuits brought against the pesticide companies. We need to have some test cases in the courts.

As the evidence is mounting that for example prenatal organophosphate exposure increases the risk of autism, I'd like to see parents with severely autistic children suing the chemical companies that manufacture organophosphate pesticides.

It costs a lot of money to look after a severely autistic person for their whole life, and thus courts should be awarding compensation — paid for my the pesticide manufacturers if liability can be proven — which covers these lifetime care costs.

In the DeWayne Johnson case, his employer provided neither basic protective gear nor training in use of herbicides, and no procedures to inspect and maintain the sprayer. He wound up getting a bath in the stuff at one point, which probably made an impression on the jury. I dunno much about chemistry but I'll guess that being soaked in the stuff ain't good for you. Even Monsanto doesn't say it's OK to take a bath in it!

If you start with the assumption that X is guilty of Y, you can construct enough reasons to convince yourself or an audience that it is true. Rather than taxing the food supply to help the autistic, we should help them because they can't help themselves. The $$ comes from exactly the same place - the public, but it avoids the distortions of having a legal jackpot system. What you'll get with that is fewer, larger companies making regulated pesticides and smaller, judgement proof (because they have no $$) outfits selling unregulated stuff, such as whatever was used before the FDA existed. The new, improved pesticides which replace whatever a jury objects to may turn out to be worse than the old ones. You'll also have more mold, fungus, insect and animal damaged food,

I don't want x,y or z poison in my food in meaningful amounts, and want all of them to be held to much less than what's considered safe, just to be sure. But you can't have Manna, it doesn't exist. Poisons are natural and everywhere; plants produce natural insecticides and hundreds of animal poisons, your body produces formaldehyde, etc. There's no Edenic state of Nature we can return to.
 
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HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
Well, the novichok, sarin and VX chemical warfare agents, which are the world's most potent agents, are all organophosphates. So that may be one way to introduce the subject of organophosphates. Of course the organophosphates chemicals used as pesticide are much less lethal than these warfare agents; but organophosphates are still a nasty class of chemicals.

My own ME/CFS arose not long after a chronic organophosphate poisoning I experienced in my own home. Someone spilt a large amount of a gardener's organophosphate pesticide called malathion in my house, and being unaware of the dangers, did not clean it up properly.

Malathion has the unfortunately property that its breakdown products are 1000 times more toxic than malathion itself (with respect to their cholinesterase inhibition). So that means that if you use or spill any malathion in an indoor environment like a home, where its breakdown products cannot escape into the wind or rain, and so remain in the home for long periods, you can get horribly poisoned as I did; the symptoms I had from this chronic OP poisoning were really dire. So that was my "education" on the horrible effects of organophosphates.

Malathion has since been banned in the EU, but not yet in the US.

"My own ME/CFS arose not long after a chronic organophosphate poisoning I experienced in my own home. Someone spilt a large amount of a gardener's organophosphate pesticide called malathion in my house, and being unaware of the dangers, did not clean it up properly."

Ouch! Well I can understand how you'd have a strong reaction to o-phosphates. They don't belong on residential property, much less indoors. But you had an exposure of millions of times higher than what you might get by, say, living in a town near farms, which is still more than the vanishingly small traces that may make it into food.

There are many common substances that will kill or cripple you if exposed in high amounts. I recall hearing of people who worked in a building which had leaky sewer pipes in the basement, which created an incubator for who-knows-what bio-nasties. Many went on to develop permanent health problems which the building owner - a hospital! - denied responsibility for. Years later the building was declared unsafe due to said contamination, which started with plain ol' sewage.

Regarding whomever contaminated your home, ignorance is not excuse, they knew the stuff was meant to be use OUTSIDE and was meant to kill stuff. They had a moral, and perhaps legal obligation to inform the homeowner (or buyer) if they were unable to clean it up themselves. Are they in jail or was their "who, me? NotMyFaultNotMyFault!" act accepted?
 
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