Stem Cell Therapy

[trickthefox]

No offence, but you sound like you had your head in the sand, there are literally hundreds of studies on stem cells in areas other than immune regeneration after chemo, i have conversed with quite a few doctors working in this field, and watched many talks on them. Saying 'people get better for a number of reasons' when you have had someone sick for years, trying various treatment modalities like antibiotics, only to get better months after a stem cell procedure sounds like someone who doesn't want to believe in them working. Spontanous recovery from lyme/autoimmune/M.E. is very rare in my experience.

There are a number of explanations why the stem cells may be helping, not necisarily because they are directly replacing damaged cells or tissue, but because they can influence deffective B/T cell responses and help quiet inflamation until homeostasis is resumed.

"Mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) are now known to display not only stem cell multipotency, but also robust antiinflammatory and regenerative properties. After widespread in-vitro and in-vivo preclinical testing, autologous and allogeneic MSCs have been applied in a range of immune mediated conditions, including graft versus host disease, Crohn's disease, multiple sclerosis, refractory systemic lupus erythematosus and systemic sclerosis. Current data suggests that MSCs may not only replace diseased tissues, but also exert several trophic, regenerative and antiinflammatory effects. "

 

[trickthefox]

The doctor sounds as if he saw amazing increases in his bank account from randomly taking bits of people and putting them back. It is just not credible that stomach fat stuck in a knee would have an effect on Parkinson's. after all the cells were already there in the stomach fat so why should it make any difference putting them a bit further away from the brain in a knee where they will die. Why would anyone put it down to that. Maybe the patient had adjusted his medication.

Sorry folks, but stem cell therapy does not exist.

That is a very overly simplified explanation of adipose stem cell extraction, and a basic understanding of stem cells mechanisms of action once re-introduced to the body. Cells home to areas of inflamation when reintroduced systemically either intravenously or otherwise, typically most will go to the lungs, but many also go to the gut, and some to the brain, this has been proved in research. Also once extracted from fat they are separated, primed, chemically potentiated, only then reintroduced to the system. Mesemchycal stem cells extracted from fat have been shown to repair thyroid, diabetes, help with conditions like chrons, please do your research before you knock it

 

[trickthefox]

Also my own testimony is my lymphocytes have returned to normal range for the first time in 7 years just months following a stem cell procedure, they were well below refference range every single time before this without fail. Im pretty sure this is not a placebo effect. I am noticing little shifts, but it is a process.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Also my own testimony is my lymphocytes have returned to normal range for the first time in 7 years just months following a stem cell procedure, they were well below refference range every single time before this without fail. Im pretty sure this is not a placebo effect. I am noticing little shifts, but it is a process.

Dear trickthefox,
I understand your enthusiasm for this but you have not yet given me a single example of reasonable published evidence. Lots and lots of evidence is no use if one does not see the quality - there is always lots of talk about trendy speculative ideas. Review journals are weighed down by articles about the wonders of stem cells because that is how people justify grants. But there is no such thing as 'a stem cell'. There are various populations of cells that have the potential to differentiate into blood cells or other cell types but I have yet to see much value in taking just of 'stem cells'.

Having worked for forty years in science I have come to realise that wishful thinking dominates most scientific lab work - even in what are thought of as the best centres. Most centres are not the best and all sorts of nonsense goes on.

What sort of stem cells would be useful in ME and why are they not already doing the job if they are there, taken out, and put back? Haemopoietic stem cells have no effect on B or T cells that I know of, or any anti-inflammatory effects. Where do these suggestions come from?

 

[trickthefox]

I can find countless examples, you will too you just need to put the time in, I do not have them to hand, nor want to spend my evening fishing through them just to prove a point, because i don't feel the need to, I believe what I do based on what i've read and witnessed first hand, and you believe what you do, and thats fine. I have seen how they have worked for some people and it has excited me, here is one i found very quickly pointing to their role in T cell modulation. Search autologous cells for various auto immune conditions and you will find a wealth of research

"accompanied by reduced number of pathogenic GM-CSF+CD4+ T cells in the spleen and peripheral blood and by an increase in the number of different subsets of regulatory T cells like FOXP3+CD4+ T cells and IL10+IL17−CD4+ T cells in the draining lymph nodes (LNs). Interestingly, increased numbers of Th17 cells coexpressing IL10 were also found in draining LNs. These results demonstrate that eASCs ameliorated arthritis after the onset of the disease by reducing the total number of pathogenic GM-CSF+CD4+ T and by increasing the number of different subsets of regulatory T cells in draining LNs, including Th17 cells expressing IL10. All these cellular responses, ultimately, lead to the reestablishment of the regulatory/inflammatory balance in the draining LNs"


Human Adipose-Derived Mesenchymal Stem Cells Modulate Experimental Autoimmune Arthritis by Modifying Early Adaptive T Cell Responses

 

[trickthefox]

You can tell me that my friends who went on to recover, and who consider themsevles fully recovered who all went to the same clinic to have the same stem cell procedure did so by some other coindidental miracle, but it seems to much of a 'brush it under the carpet' explanation. The stem cells worked. These were people who gave up careers and speant yearss in pain who now consider themselves only after a few months recovered. Following their story is all the proof I need.. perhaps later the studies explaining exactly how and why will be there, but for me, the proof is in the pudding

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Dear trickthefox,
Rheumatoid arthritis was, as you know, my area of research. The paper on giving human stem cells to mice with collagen induced arthritis tells us nothing about RA. Collagen induced arthritis is a disease of cartilage, RA is a disease of synovium. They happen to both give inflammation in joints but that is all. The abstract is enough to tell me that this is incompetent research. No data given. Full of erroneous statements in the introduction. Inappropriate model etc etc. It is just make believe I am afraid. Please do not think this is science. It is not. It is the babbling of a community o f people who think they are doing science but have no clue and get published because the publishers make money out of them.

I don't like during cold water on things but I do worry about people wasting vast amounts of money on treatments when the science is worse than PACE. Real life stem cell therapy in humans does not exist as far as I am concerned and it might be good for people to hear that view before spending money.

 

[tinacarroll27]

I had a friend who had stem cell transplant for Lymphoma. She is now free of cancer but ironically she developed ME afterwards. I think I read somewhere there is a risk of herpes reactivation from stem cells transplant(Correct me if I am wrong, I am not an expert) and she did get reactivated shingles after and then went down with ME months later.

 

[trickthefox]

Please do not think this is science. It is not. It is the babbling of a community o f people who think they are doing science but have no clue and get published because the publishers make money out of them.

I don't like during cold water on things but I do worry about people wasting vast amounts of money on treatments when the science is worse than PACE. Real life stem cell therapy in humans does not exist as far as I am concerned and it might be good for people to hear that view before spending money.

I can see why you may feel sceptical, I was offered my procedure as part of a study, so nope, they arnt all out there to con you. The recovery i've witnessed in my friends will top trump the viewpoint of a stranger online in this instance, and it happened too many times for it to be fluke

 

[cman89]

https://consumer.healthday.com/cogn...herapy-succeeds-but-poses-risks-711820.htmNot exactly a scientific paper, but it does pose an interesting hypothesis, in the stem cell alteration of the immune system can potentially affect illnesses marked by immune dysfunction and attack. That being said, depending on how the process goes down, the risks for infection and/or re-activation are still posed. Much work is yet to be done.

 

[cman89]

What we certainly dont have at the moment is targeted stem cell therapy, so the devil is in the details I reckon. Just sating "stem cell" therapy is far too broad a spectrum..

 

[Groggy Doggy]

Access to stem cell therapy was just discussed at the FDA stem cell hearing (Sept 12/13). Patients are forced to engage in medical tourism, since its illegal to get some kinds treatments in the US. Its a case where the FDA blocks treatments that do not make big pharma rich. Its the all to familiar; 'profits over people'. Regarding safety, the FOIA requests show that its a safe procedure; so don't believe the manufactured hype. There were only 4 adverse events reported against 570 stem cell clinics. We should learn from PACE, and be skeptical about propaganda, and the harm that it does (always follow the money to find the truth).

http://www.patientsforstemcells.org/foia/

Here is a video from a MS patient:

 

[IreneF]

This is what can happen:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/fda-looks-at-dubious-stem-cell-clinics/

 

[wastwater]

I would like my FOX01 at 13q14 tumour surpressor back but I doubt you can just copy and paste it back in.

 

[Cheesus]

I don't like during cold water on things but I do worry about people wasting vast amounts of money on treatments when the science is worse than PACE. Real life stem cell therapy in humans does not exist as far as I am concerned and it might be good for people to hear that view before spending money.

I understand this money perspective. My GP says the same thing. Whenever I bring up a treatment he always asks me how much it is going to cost.

Money becomes so immaterial when you're sick. Obviously you want to spend it wisely, but I think I speak for most people here when I say that I would rather waste money than not try anything at all. I've spent a lot on different treatments over the years and 95% haven't given any obvious benefit. I don't regret any of it.

Having said that, spending tens of thousands on one treatment doesn't seem like a good gamble. I would rather spread the odds across a number of cheaper treatments that have good evidence of efficacy from other diseases.

 

[Marky90]

I sense the same problems here with stem cell injection, as we see with long-term AB treatment for lyme. First off: we can`t always be darn sure that the patient has lyme, secondly long term AB-treatment ufortunately do not have sufficient evidence for efficiacy, some studies are even negative. Third, there is the risk that the anecdotal improvem isnt actually due to something else.

Listen, I`m a big fan of listening to chronically ill patients, believe you me, i`m one myself! Still, the points above remain. The implication is that, as JE points out, probably, a lot of patients will pay loads of cash for nothing; and quite often, the advertised probability of improvement/recovery, will in reality be lower than "promised".

I would also be keen to see a paper on this, with objective tests for recovery. Probably, that does not exist - but then I think the people working on this, should work on proving that this treatment is as good as they say it is.

 

[Groggy Doggy]

This is what can happen:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/fda-looks-at-dubious-stem-cell-clinics/

I am all to familiar with term "quackery". The AMA formed the "committee on quackery" which promoted an "unlawful conspiracy" to undermine chiropractors. In reading the link you provided, it feels like deja vu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Ass'n

 

[cman89]

Ive always wondered why this therapy is so freaking expensive. It doesent seem like the equipment and procedure is that complicated to warrant the price tag.

 

[Cheesus]

Ive always wondered why this therapy is so freaking expensive. It doesent seem like the equipment and procedure is that complicated to warrant the price tag.

I imagine it is scarcity. It's a sellers' market.

 

[cman89]

I imagine it is scarcity. It's a sellers' market.

Quite potentially