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Simon Wessely in New Scientist

Messages
1,082
Location
UK
I'm deeply suspicious of this whole turn around. This is angering me more than his usual BS because i can see him trying to weasle out of everything he's done, he's so slimey and determined.

I don't want his greasy carcass anywhere near our decent research in case he tries to sabotage it by pretending to be behind it.

He has no right to be even commenting on rituximab.

It would be so great if those quotes Val brilliantly put together could somehow be put into a book for all to see.

That man never fails to make me speechless and nauseated simultaneously :depressed:
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
There's no evidence in the above he's "reversing his position"
Agreed. He has recently taken to admitting that there are genuine physical symptoms, BUT that is because we are causing them with our dysfunctional thinking. He can claim he's not been saying we're not sick, just that it's our mental illness making us ill.

He's just playing more of his manipulative mind games here. "I've always said these are very sick people." Yeah, you did. It's everything else you've said, and done, that makes your full position clear that we object to.

It looks to me like he's trying to develop a workable CYA strategy... and people will let him do it if we don't stand up and make them face the truth of what he's done.
 

SilverbladeTE

Senior Member
Messages
3,043
Location
Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
He's a "man for all seasons", cause he'll change his opinion to follow the prevailing wind at any minute of the day :p

and SOC is right, he IS responsible for deaths,
He didn't do his duty and stand up for patients, he stood up for his belief of what the illness was and backing the Establishment.

same way he changed his tune on Gulf War Syndrome only after the evidence showed he was full of sh*t!

simple fact patients loathe him should have woken him up to the fact that maybe he's been WRONG all along and has one HELL of a lot of apologizing to do AND working to undo the damage with a lot of humble pie.

Guy reminds me of a maniacal mix of General McArthur (self-aggrandizing useless bastard), Beaker from the Muppets (strangely enough, lol), and Sir Humphrey from "Yes, Minister" :p
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
While I agree with the comments, understand the anger and even added one myself, I think @leela makes a valid point. We need to focus our limited energy into the future as there's a point when complaints are no longer therapeutic.

Not to forget but to learn from the past as there's absolutely nothing we can do about it.

Barb

Now I can't find my post. It may have been on another thread.
 
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Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
There's no evidence in the above he's "reversing his position" - he's been maintaining for years that it's "not all in the mind" but with the implication that it's only the effects of it being in the mind which are then experienced in the body (see his old New Scientist piece). So his above quote is just him again claiming, oh, I'm not one of these extreme people either way, and it's a shame that so few take it seriously, like I always have!

Yeah, I think that some people are misinterpreting him now and/or then.
 

Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
While no single person is solely responsible for this catastrophe, Wessely is undoubtedly the intellectual godfather and chief propagandist for the psychosomatic view of ME/CFS. Of individuals who do need to be held accountable, he is at the top of the list.

Accountability for both individuals and systems are not luxury optional extras for society. It has to be done transparently, robustly, carefully, and fairly. But it has to be done. We have to know where & why we go wrong, to learn the lessons so that we can prevent it happening again.

It is not just us in the ME/CFS world who are adversely affected by this insidious psycho-drama morality-play tripe. It has insinuated itself into the core of general public policy, most notably in the UK.

Worst case scenario here would be a double wasting of our lives, first from disease and mismanagement, and then from medicine and society not learning the lesson. :depressed:

It must not be allowed to happen.
 
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SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
We cannot sit back and let these people get away with destroying lives just because "it's all in the past" or it's a lot of trouble to hold them accountable. As long as people get away with the destruction of lives, future bad people will destroy more lives because they see there will be no consequence to them. Personal consequences is all people like that understand.
 

leela

Senior Member
Messages
3,290
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

If this was directed at me, I'm certainly not advocating doing nothing for ourselves and our wellbeing.
I'm suggesting that throwing more spotlight on that guy, and wasting our energy on "making" him "apologise" for being wrong
might be misdirected energy. I'd rather (guardedly) hope that he has permanently stopped his campaign to malign our patient group, keep a watchful eye on how he might be trying to position himself, and be thankful he is perhaps no longer planning to churn his PR machine and flap on about "terroristic insane unsick crazy people."
 

Kyla

ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ
Messages
721
Location
Canada
I am not sure he has actually changed anything about his opinion.
This looks more like a calculated pivot to me.

I have a queasy feeling that this position buys him a few more years to keep pushing GET and CBT as the "best available treatments". And to continue paying lip service to the idea that he is trying to "help" PWME, and has been the whole time.

I'll believe he has changed his opinions when he repudiates GET and CBT as effective treatments. And I am personally pretty sceptical that will happen.

I hope to be proved wrong, but until then I think it is premature to let our guard down regarding Wesseley and his cronies.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I wrote these comments in another thread:

Decades after the rest of the world accepted MS as physical it is still being treated by some as partially psychosomatic. Given the recent trend to claim that many disorders are physical but have a psychosomatic comorbid disorder, a dual diagnosis, they are positioned to keep going.

Rituximab results give us something to work with as advocates, but advocacy will still be required.


Here is something that is an open secret in psychiatry. Very few psychiatric diagnoses are stable, have cures, or are even established disease/disorder states. They are all manufactured categories. Psychiatry is the most problematic of all medical disciplines, and I would argue that most psychiatry does not deserve to be considered medicine but should be considered alternative medicine. It does not belong in a discipline that needs to be based on science.

So psychiatry has a history of diagnoses disappearing, morphing, blending and separating from each other, and, yes, becoming non psychiatric. So it will not be a surprise to any well informed psychiatrist that a diagnosis is changed or dropped. What most find surprising is how diagnostic categories are created.

Based mostly on subjective interpretation of clinical history and studies using subjective methods, small panels decide amongst themselves what is what, and, hey presto, we have a new or revised or dropped diagnostic category.

So do they test these for scientific validity? Nope. How would they do that? Most of this is subjective interpretation. Sure they can use statistics to back them up, but that is just numbers if not properly used.

But, I hear some saying, the APA for example does extensive validity testing! They sure do. They test for diagnostic reproducibility. That is, how often psychs will get the new diagnoses consistently the same. Note this is about repeatability of diagnoses, not scientific validity of diagnosis. If anyone doubts me, please show me a scientific paper, with objective markers, on a range of axis 1 disorders in DSM5, that validates these disorders as discrete clinical entities.

Psychiatry is trying to become more scientific. So far its largely failing. Psychology at least tries to get things right. Sociologists are at least aware of the risks in their methodologies and try to make allowances. Psychiatry however embraces concepts like lying to the patient if they think its in the patient's interest. They inflate, conflate and outright lie. There is much in psychiatry that is appropriate, or effective (at management) and in some cases scientific, but much of it deserves the term devised in the 1970s - psychobabble.

It will be interesting to see how psychiatry embraces the evolving science on ME and CFS. So far they have not done well. From comments over the years a number of advocates have suspected they are repositioning themselves. They could see what was coming. Yet, rather than discuss diagnostic and research uncertainty (unless its other people's research) they kept insisting they were right. So there!

I find it very interesting that it took two oncologists who appear to have what I would call the spirit of inquiry, to make a big leap in ME and CFS treatment and understanding.
 

Cheshire

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
I am not sure he has actually changed anything about his opinion.
This looks more like a calculated pivot to me.

Does Wessely have an opinion? I don't think so, I think the only thing that interests Wessely is Wessely himself. He turned to CFS patients because he saw a gap of knowledge that allowed him to create his own "theory" and built up a career. Ambition and a pathetic need for attention are driving SW.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Other comments I made elsewhere:

All too believable, sadly. This is the pattern with psychobabble. When they are proved wrong, they jump ship, then find a new target group. It happened with MS, something I have been meaning to look into further but have never gotten around to doing.


ME was first claimed to be a psychogenic disorder around 1970 to my knowledge. The first extensively documented probable ME outbreak was LA, about 1934, though with cases going back to 1932. ME was coined, I think, in 1956. The modern push for psychogenic explanations began in the 80s. CFS was coined pre 1988, though officially used from 1988 on.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
While I agree with the comments, understand the anger and even added one myself, I think @leela makes a valid point. We need to focus our limited energy into the future as there's a point when complaints are no longer therapeutic.
What about the future of his next group of victims? It's not like he's renounced psychobabble, he's just moved onto new diseases, and likely will continue to do so until he retires.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I have a queasy feeling that this position buys him a few more years to keep pushing GET and CBT as the "best available treatments". And to continue paying lip service to the idea that he is trying to "help" PWME, and has been the whole time.
I think the BPS group will continue to push CBT as an integrated part of ME treatment regardless of airtight proof of completely biological mechanisms. As Alex mentioned above, these exact same researchers have already made forays into portraying some MS symptoms as psychosomatic, as well as other conditions like post-treatment cancer fatigue.

They do this by using mood disorder questionnaires where physical symptoms are equated to depression or anxiety. Every ill person will score some points even if in perfect mental and emotional health, and the sickest patients and those with the diseases causing the most widespread symptoms will score the highest. It's a highly abusive and perhaps even fraudulent practice, and it needs to be ended.
I'll believe he has changed his opinions when he repudiates GET and CBT as effective treatments. And I am personally pretty sceptical that will happen.
Agreed. The one constant over the decades has been that they mandate that CBT is the cure. They have repeatedly revised their hypothesis of how it is the cure, but they have never budged an inch from it. Even when CBT fails to work, the biggest concession they have ever made is that perhaps earlier CBT, more CBT, or a slightly different form of CBT is the answer.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I may be a pessimist, but people in authority have been abusing others all throughout history, and gotten away with it, too. This is not going to change. It seems to me nothing but a fairytale that Wessely will ever be held "accountable" for anything.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Will he ever retire or does he love it so much he will go on till he dies?
I think he's so fond of hearing himself speak that he would continue to do so even while modestly claiming he's officially retired and not involved anymore. I would expect public speaking engagements, written/published vanity musings, and whispering into the ears of government agencies to continue indefinitely.