• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Silly question.. why do the Bs feel so bad?

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Fred, do you know why taking the methyl Bs causes the potassium to drop so suddenly?

Thanks!

Audrey

Hi Audrey,

Potassium is used in bulk in every cell in our body. When methylation has been supressed so has cell reproduction. When whatever is stopping cell reproduction is supplied suddenly a lot more potassium is needed. It is an indicator that cell reproduction has gotten going. It's good news as long as you know to take potassium. Otherwise it is misery and even dangerous to fatal if it is severe enough for long enough.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Freddd,

As you know I am trying to help my brother-in-law with diabetic neuropathy so bad he can;t get off the couch even into a wheelchair. I gave him a complete basic protocol plus a few things proven to improve nerve conduction velocity specific to diabetics (benfotiamine and carnitine). I was only able to do the anti-oxidants in multovitamin doses and was not able to any herbals because of all the medicines he is on for heart trouble, COPD, cholesterol, diabetes, and nerve pain.

However I neglected the things in the protcol that *I* never seemed to need (and so I tend to forget about
them). Specifically the aB12 and POTASSIUM! I have high blood pressure so I know right away if I need potassium and I just supplement w/o even thinking about it. My brother-in-law is a TERRIBLE patient and he is on many meds which, for instance, block the symptoms of low blood sugar (no shaking, for instance) and for all I know could blunt or change the effects of low potassium. He does NOT have high blood pressure so there is no easy way to know but I would not want to supplement if he does not need it. He won't even talk to me about his symptoms - like he expects everything to work the first time or it's a worthless effort and forget it - you know?

So can you tell me again how to recognise a potassium shortage in others? He is in pain all the time from the neuropathy. Are you saying the pain (already blunted by morphne) would be worse in potassium deficiency? Is it possible for pain to be worse than the pain of dying nerve cells???

Help?

Thanks,
Rydra

Hi Rydra,

For me the sure tipoff is excrucitating muscle spasms in my legs especially (damaged nerves already) when relaxed, not flexed, not stretched, not contracted such as sitting in a chair or lying in bed in the middle of the night. Also around this time can come heart arrythmias, depression, irrritability, nausea. I'm sure some thers can contribute additional things. Like so many things of the 20 or so listed symptoms, most people will have up to a handful of symptoms as their early indicators. Some are difficult to see, like depression and irrtability as those are common anyway so watch for changes in mood and personality. They can be an earliest indicator if noticed. A lot of us speak of the Mr Hyde personality. When that comes on something is wrong.

The adb12 is needed for repair of myelin and to promote neural growth.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I'd like to make a comment about angular chielitis--the sores at the corner of the mouth. I NEVER had this before in my entire life until I was looking after my brother-in-law with neuropathy one day and my sister keeps a lot of junk food in the house. I have a bit of low side of normal thyroid so I never keep junk food in my house. Sure enough I ate more than my share of junk food and I had missed taking my Vitamin E because I ran out and hadn't gotton around to buying another (I take 1g d-alpha-tocopherol/day). I was SHOCKED to develop those sores at the corner of the mouth. I looked it up and SURE ENOUGH - it can be caused by insufficient E. Now I realise that eating a lot of carbs is going to up my requirements for B's, but here's something else interesting...I REGULARLY ate lots of junk every PMS, I regularly took a B100 non-active (don't think actives were available in the past) and 1g E, and I never got those sores. I made them go away in about a week (well scabs don't heal immediately you know!) If you get such sores, look to THREE things:
(1) You ate too much junk carbohydrate for the B/E you are taking
(2) You are not taking enough active B complex
(3) You are not taking any/enough E

On the other conference people made a BIG DEAL out of taking the active B complex (I take Thorne Basic B) twice a day and what a big improvement it made over once a day. Some nutritionists recommend taking B's 3x/day (I speculate that is because B1 only stays in the system 3-4 hours). So...are you taking th eactive B's 2-3 times /day? Eating a lot of sugar/starch? Not taking enough E?

P.S. I don't want anyone to get prostate cancer by reading above. www.lef.org said there is evidence that d-alpha-tocopherol (the active anti-oxidant) w/o gamma tocopherol can lead to prostate cancer.

Hi Rydra,

Another factor for cheilitis is vitamin B2 deficiency. However, it's the last factor in that heals it. So if a person is taking their b-complex twice a day and their High gamma E and and getting a good amount of mb12, and it is then responsive to folate status it becomes a folate deficiency signal. It's good to hear others specifying b-complex more than once a day and high gamma E.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi Lou,

The part of the nail aqffected by anything in the past two weeks is still inside the skin. The part of the nail that breaks and tears reflects nutritional status 2-6 months ago.
 

Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
Hi Lou,

When I started each of mb12, adb12, Metafolin and l-carnitne fumarate my nails got thicker and stronger. The mb12 caused a ledge across my nails as they all doubled in thickness at the same time. When my partner was traveling, she overdid it and collapsed for a day. As her nails grew out there was a groove across her nails where the cell reproduction almost stopped for a few days. Induced deficiencies can cause the nails having thinner spots and more tearable.



So, just trying to put this together, your nails grew thicker and stronger on mb12, adb12, metafolin and l-carnitine fumarate, and mine after use of mb12 and metafolin(not yet on the adb12 and carnitine) grew weaker, then based upon Rydra post re copper deficency and your thoughts on induced deficency maybe an already low supply of copper was taxed with my start of mb12 and metafolin. Whadda you think, Fred? Possible? Thanks.
 

rydra_wong

Guest
Messages
514
Well I think Freddd has a point that if you have only been on the protocol a few weeks that only accounts for nail still under the skin.

Also if you are male you are less likely to be copper deficient until you are older - say like 70 - because
you still have testosterone increasing the half life of copper. Smoking can also cause copper deficiency (due to cadmium poisoning), as can too much zinc as it impedes copper absorption. But short of smoking, I don't kno that I've ever heard of a younger male having a copper shortage. I think it is common for women over 50 to be deficient in copper.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Hi Adreno,

That is a BINGO for paradoxical folate deficiency it looks like. Yes the folic acid creeps up on you as the unchanged FA builds up over time. The good news is now you know what it looks like in you.

Have you had episodes of these symptoms other times, perhaps seasonally with lots of fresh veggies during harvest seasons or eating vegetarian or just on and off over time?

Well, I've been taking the thorne B complex for over a year, and haven't experienced these specific issues, so folinic acid might not be an issue for me. OTOH, a large serving of spinach can make me nauseous, and I've never enjoyed (or craved) dark greens. The few times I tried something like green superfoods powder, I've felt crappy.

Is teeth sensitivity/gum pain another symptom of paradoxical folate defiency? I have experienced that in the last two weeks also.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
On vitamin E: not only has it been shown to be often deficient in ME, but I know of a doctor who routinely tested patients for it. In several patients the vitamin E levels were indetectable with conventional lab tests, presumably as they were so low. Its on my short list for probable deficiencies in ME patients. Bye, Alex
 

Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
Hi Lou,

The part of the nail aqffected by anything in the past two weeks is still inside the skin. The part of the nail that breaks and tears reflects nutritional status 2-6 months ago.


Thanks, Fred, don't know how I missed this post, but makes sense. On second thought, you said starting mb12 active protocol made your nails thicker and stronger. You must mean over some extended time you had this effect, or the question arises as to why my nails couldn't be negatively affected in a brief period while yours positively in a similar time period.

In that prior post I see now you never said this happened quickly, it's just I got that's what you were saying, and so now I'm assuming I simply misunderstood how quick this happened.




Hi Rydra, we're all so different there are probably other reasons could be added to your list for cu deficiency in males. For instance, I think vit C is an antagonist(guess it chelates cu) to cu, and for many years I took mega doses of Vit C. Thanks.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Thanks, Fred, don't know how I missed this post, but makes sense. On second thought, you said starting mb12 active protocol made your nails thicker and stronger. You must mean over some extended time you had this effect, or the question arises as to why my nails couldn't be negatively affected in a brief period while yours positively in a similar time period.

In that prior post I see now you never said this happened quickly, it's just I got that's what you were saying, and so now I'm assuming I simply misunderstood how quick this happened.




Hi Rydra, we're all so different there are probably other reasons could be added to your list for cu deficiency in males. For instance, I think vit C is an antagonist(guess it chelates cu) to cu, and for many years I took mega doses of Vit C. Thanks.


HI Lou,

Yes, over time. The nail got twice as thick and I could watch the wave of thickening progressing slowly up my fingers and toenails over some months. I could see it and feel it of course.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Well, I've been taking the thorne B complex for over a year, and haven't experienced these specific issues, so folinic acid might not be an issue for me. OTOH, a large serving of spinach can make me nauseous, and I've never enjoyed (or craved) dark greens. The few times I tried something like green superfoods powder, I've felt crappy.

Is teeth sensitivity/gum pain another symptom of paradoxical folate defiency? I have experienced that in the last two weeks also.

Hi Adreno,

Is teeth sensitivity/gum pain another symptom of paradoxical folate defiency? I have experienced that in the last two weeks also.

It's hard to tell right now as there is so much overlap of the b12 and methylfolate seficiencies. It could be. That could explain the increase in the (perceived?) pain during startup. Have ti wach for that. What about some of the other things like cheilitis, IBS, nausea, etc?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Hi Adreno,

Is teeth sensitivity/gum pain another symptom of paradoxical folate defiency? I have experienced that in the last two weeks also.

It's hard to tell right now as there is so much overlap of the b12 and methylfolate seficiencies. It could be. That could explain the increase in the (perceived?) pain during startup. Have ti wach for that. What about some of the other things like cheilitis, IBS, nausea, etc?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Do you have other symptoms that come on always with the weakness and always go away when it goes asway, though timing may be several dat=ys differentg but always the same several days?

Still not sure what you mean. Since starting the Country Life adb12 about two weeks ago, I've noticed the described symptoms, including gum pain, teeth sensitivity.

Whether I've had symptoms relating to this over the years is hard to deduct. I have had constant symptoms for the last 4 years, and they are always fluctuating in severity. They include headache, nausea, rash, anxiety, cold extrimities, depression, irritability, burning and tingling, twitching, myalgies, weakness, shaking/tremors, fatigue, brain fog, IBS, insomnia, dysautonomia, allergies, gum pain. Hope I didn't forget some.
 
Messages
8
Hi guys I am new to this website. I totally believe methylation is key to my healing from CFS/ fibro. Two years ago I took 800mcg folic acid and felt AMAZING for two weeks. I slept better. My back pain went away. Then all of a sudden I started to get a migraine every time I took the folic acid. Even when I halved the dose and took it a month later, I still got a migraine. Now two years later, I still can't tolerate even a quarter of a tablet of metafolin. What is going on? I also get an immediate migraine from B12...even if I nibble off the slightest bit of a tiny active B12, I get a SPLITTING headache to the point of having to lie in bed in pain for the next 24 hours.

Does anyone know what could be going on? Or what I could do to be able to tolerate folic acid and B12? I know if I could tolerate these vitamins, I would feel much better. For some reason B6 or P5P gives me no problem at all. Is this a potassium deficiency? What "cofactors" could I be missing?
 

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Hi guys I am new to this website. I totally believe methylation is key to my healing from CFS/ fibro. Two years ago I took 800mcg folic acid and felt AMAZING for two weeks. I slept better. My back pain went away. Then all of a sudden I started to get a migraine every time I took the folic acid. Even when I halved the dose and took it a month later, I still got a migraine. Now two years later, I still can't tolerate even a quarter of a tablet of metafolin. What is going on? I also get an immediate migraine from B12...even if I nibble off the slightest bit of a tiny active B12, I get a SPLITTING headache to the point of having to lie in bed in pain for the next 24 hours.

Does anyone know what could be going on? Or what I could do to be able to tolerate folic acid and B12? I know if I could tolerate these vitamins, I would feel much better. For some reason B6 or P5P gives me no problem at all. Is this a potassium deficiency? What "cofactors" could I be missing?

Hi, Lola.

You might consider trying 500 micrograms per day of molybdenum. Molybdenum helps with the conversion of sulfite to sulfate. If it's low, sulfite can build up, and that can produce headaches. As always, I recommend working with a physician while on methylation-type protocols.

Best regards,

Rich