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signs of a low copper deficiency?

Messages
4
Location
Texas
My fiancee is paleo, 23 years old. She has pyroluria and has been taking B6 (P5P) and zinc for a little over a year now, symptoms in general have cleared up. Around November 2014, she increased her dosage of both to about twice what she usually takes, as she was experiencing high levels of stress. I know that her zinc levels were at 100mg/day. Around January, she felt a little weird but figured it was a fluke. Two months ago, she started feeling just overall really horrible. About 2-3 wks ago she started to have crackling in her joints, crunching especially around hands, feet, neck/jaw, and elbows. It was around this time that we suspected she might have overdosed on zinc, and resulted in a copper deficiency. She stopped taking all zinc, still takes B6 P-5-P once a day, usually 2 tsp of "Natural Calm Magnesium supplement" a day, handful of liver here and there, collagen supplements, and she has started trying to take copper supplements (copper gluconate, 2mg/day).

Though she says she feels less crackly/crunchy overall since stopping zinc and adding copper, she says that the copper makes her feel more sore, especially in her feet and deep in her legs. She says that she feels bad when she takes the copper, like maybe she ought not to add more or increase her dose. She has been fatigued and sore and generally feeling crappy. I'm worried and not sure what to do; I have done plenty of research on copper deficiency in the past few days, but am not especially familiar with vitamin/mineral supplementation. I am concerned because I cannot find any definitive actions that we ought to be taking; I worry about her ceasing copper supplements, but I don't want her to become copper toxic either. She has had problems with copper toxicity in the past (several years ago, long since cleared up) but I don't thin that would come into play now.

My question is: does this sound like copper deficiency? If so, what course of action should we pursue? Is there anything else that it could be? Anything I may have overlooked, ought to look into? ANY insight that you could provide would be infinitely appreciated.

Paleopup,

I copy/pasted your fiancée's symptoms to the B6 Toxicity Facebook group to see if the symptoms sound familiar to any of them. One member replied, "Oh my, yes it does. I also started having crackling joints, and crunching in my feet before things got really bad. She needs to stop the B6!!"

I know. Everyone has an opinion and thinks a given problem fits their diagnosis. Best wishes. Keep us posted.

ETA: URL for the group referenced above,
https://m.facebook.com/groups/646501652136321?view=permalink&id=854203754699442&ref=bookmarks
But you have to join in order to view or comment.
 
Last edited:

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
I think serum B6 tests can be misleading because you can have b 6 wasting so it's high in blood ..low in tissue . Rich wrote about this on this forum ...that specialist lab in New Jersey might have a better test
 
Messages
4
Location
Texas
I think serum B6 tests can be misleading because you can have b 6 wasting so it's high in blood ..low in tissue . Rich wrote about this on this forum ...that specialist lab in New Jersey might have a better test

That could be true, but it's not misleading when you do have the symptoms of B6 toxicity.
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
I have pyroluria too, not exactly convinced its a real condition. Anyway, I always end up feeling bad after a while when taking zinc, B6, vitamin C or anything else that antagonizes copper. And the feeling only goes away once I take a low dose copper, in fact the symptoms alleviate rapidly. Sometimes I can feel better, cog fog clears up and I get more energy. I still haven't figured out copper though, it never seems to do much more with continued supplementation and with higher doses, and can in fact make me feel worse. I'm not sure if its a herx or copper overload.

There was another guy on here that had the same experience as me. He could take a small amount like 150mcg and get an energy boost from it. Just to put it in perspective, most copper supplements are 2-3mg. So I open a capsule and remove 90% of the contents. The most I have taken at one time is 1mg and I felt weird after that. I think your fiancee should try a lower dose of copper.

Did you ever work out if you had pyroluria, or if it is a real illness?

Do you still get these effects from copper? I have had something similar - can get a real lift.

Thanks...
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
My question is: does this sound like copper deficiency? If so, what course of action should we pursue? Is there anything else that it could be? Anything I may have overlooked, ought to look into? ANY insight that you could provide would be infinitely appreciated.

Thank you.

@paleopup that doesn't sound especially like copper deficiency to me.

Did you ever work out what it was?
 
Messages
46
at about 48 minutes into this interview Morley Robbins tells about the interrelation between copper and pyroluria…


I would try retinol (cod liver oil) as he sometimes recommends to increase ceruloplasmin.
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@rippe Thanks for sharing this video. Really informative
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
John Johnson got a bunch of hyperthyroids together and everyone ran a bunch of tests to find out what deficiencies they had in common...they all had copper deficiencies so he theorized that copper is required to turn off the thyroid.
My husband sometimes has to supplement with copper du to following sympotms:

FODMAPs intolerance
IBDS (and frequent BMs)
when it is severe he gets kinky hair

And during winter the extremities of his fingernails detach/lift from the nail bed (onycholysis).
http://www.drugs.com/health-guide/onycholysis.html
http://www.medicinenet.com/nail_separation/symptoms.htm

I have seen this symptom linked with hyperthyroid (which he clearly isn't), so since low copper is associated with the hyperthyroid state, I wonder if this fingernail problem isn't one more symptom of his copper malabsorption. Does anybody else have it?