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SIBO / Dysbiosis herbal treatment

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Aubry, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Do you mean fluoroquinolone? If he's going to prescribe you a fluoroquinolone for "high bacteroides" then KDM has really lost his way, sorry to say. Fluoroquinolones contain multiple FDA black box warnings because they have a high risk to cause permanent damage in the tendons and nervous system.

    And @Aubry, Aren't you the one who collected all the positive stories about KDM's treatments?
     
  2. MartinDH

    MartinDH Senior Member

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    As ciprofloxacin was the trigger of my ME I would highly recommend not to take it... check floxiehope.com for insights...
     
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  3. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear you got floxed, you are not alone, there are quite a few members here who are in the same boat.
    I forgot to mention that ciprofloxacine also really started my ME. I had brainfog and other mild symptoms before, in hindsight i know that was due to food allergies and SIBO. Had i not listened to doctors and just done food elimination and functional treatment for the gut i would very likely not be this sick today.

    A gastroenterologist prescribed ciprofloaxacin to me after the diagnosis of inflammatory bowel disease, she thought the lab found a pathogen in one of the tissue biopsies from my ileum. Later it turned out it wasn't a pathogenic bacteria at all, not unless it's present in huge quantities. I do have Crohn's disease now, caused by the cipro? Maybe.

    2 weeks of ciprofloaxin destroyed my brain and body. I'm really underweight and i can't seem to gain any, the fatty tissue in my face and body vanished within 2 weeks. Also my dysautonomia (POTS) started during the use of cipro and till today i'm still living with that.
    I've also been aging so quickly since the use of cipro, it's crazy.

    Not everyone gets damaged by fluoroquinolones, but if you do..... be prepared to have your life destroyed.
     
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  4. MartinDH

    MartinDH Senior Member

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    Thank you for these motivating words :)

    A doctor I was seeing last week said that docs who prescribe flouroquinolones for infections which are not life-threatening are totally crazy...
     
  5. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I was writing up notes from a Biocare webinar on improving the gut. Biocare is a good UK supplement company which is very hot on scientific studies and incorporating results into their products. As I have a Diploma in Nutrition I am able to attend seminars and webinars and receive their written literature which is excellent. From notes I had made during the webinar I had noted that they were aware about this issue of prebiotics feeding bad bacteria was actually incorrect when they looked at all the studies. They said that not one study showed this to be true.

    However, I know my gut is irritated by flaxseed so I don't take this anymore but substitute with acacia, chia and psyllium and am fine with these. Possibly our gut getting SIBO symptoms is actually different from the bad bacteria being "fed" by the prebiotic fibre? For instance if I have some flaxseed I will soon get the typical symptoms for me of irritating movement and bloating under my ribs plus wind and general feeling of discomfort plus possible excess bowel movements whereas I normally tend towards constipation. If I then don't have anymore probably within 24 hours at the most everything will settle down. If the bad bacteria were being "fed" then that shouldn't be the case I should feel worse but I don't, the discomfort just goes away and the bowel calms down.

    Obviously we are all different so yet again what works for one might not work for others.

    Pam
     
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  6. unicorn7

    unicorn7 Senior Member

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    I'm very sorry to hear this! Do you have any explanation how this could have happened, that you don't have any firmicutes anymore:jaw-drop:?

    Is this because of the herbal protocol?
     
  7. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    @Aubry Very sorry for your plight. Don't lose hope. While fecal transplants may be helpful, they're not the Holy Grail.

    It takes persistence and a well thought out plan to fix the microbiome. There is no perfect microbiome, and no perfect regimen, but much you can do to improve things.

    I'm celiac, and had lengthy ciprofloxacin treatment, then chemotherapy, and then oral rifampin and azithromycin and am currently on a triple antibiotic IV protocol to kill chlamydia pneumoniae. If anyone's gut should be a mess, mine should. Mine isn't perfect, but under continual surveillance my doctors find mine is far better than expected.

    Strategies that have helped:
    • A high fiber, low carb organic diet, with lots of varied nonstarchy vegetables, no grains, and very little fruit. Certain foods can encourage or discourage growth of certain bacterial strains
    • Glutamine, if needed, for the intestinal lining
    • A DNA stool test every 3-4 months for mid-course corrections, including bacteria, fungi, parasites, and viruses
    • Probiotics, rotated every couple of months of high potency (50-350 billion, not 2 billion) matches to the gaps in my microbiome. Its impossible to get them all at once, but starting with lacto/bifido & moving to more exotic strains
    • Prebiotics - in my doctor's words when the expensive probiotics is taken weren't showing up on tests "They have nothing to stick to!" I've been on Seeking Health ProBio Immune GOS product and Thorne FiberMend, but there are others like inulin. You need to match them to the bacteria you want to cultivate.
    • Bad actors - candida, parasites, bad bacteria. Find them and get rid of them. If you don't have anything good, its an opportunity for bad to proliferate. Bad bacteria can crowd out or kill good ones, so you need to figure out how to crowd them out.
    • Cfsremission.com has some interesting ideas for cultivating certain strains. I don't think it'll cure ME/CFS as he proposed, but he has some good hints of what to try in more exotic situations
    • Watch stomach acid and pancreatic enzymes - take them if you need them to make food easier to digest
    • Be aware of nutrient deficiencies. Various good bacteria extract different nutrients and convert them to usable forms, so if you don't have the right strains, you'll be nutrient deficient. Transdermal, sublingual, and/or IV nutrients can help.

    Its a project, and in my experience, doesn't happen overnight. The stuff you read about the gut rebounding after a week is nonsense. Its more like 12-24 months of a wise, concerted effort, especially if yours is in bad shape to begin with.

    Best wishes...
     
  8. Banana94

    Banana94 Senior Member

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    I agree with your advise Learner 1.
    I think the problem is sometimes that you may not have bad bugs but good bacterias like bactericides get to much. If you take probiotics they will also eat them. maybe you can't get rid of them only by feeding the good or better ones..
     
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  9. Aubry

    Aubry Senior Member

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    I don't think bacteroidets are any good. They use all my oxygen :( I get depressed if I compare my results from 3 years ago (moment I crashed and got very ill) and nowadays (much worse). So treatments didn't help at all. I took tons of probiotics, all sorts of antibiotics, all sort of herbals for SIBO ... nothing did work apparently. I'm fed up. 3 years ago MSA.jpg now MSA.jpg
     
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  10. Banana94

    Banana94 Senior Member

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    Im shocked about this change in you Stool analysis. I don't understand WHY you took antibiotics? Your stool analysis from 3 years ago doesn't look so bad!? Bacteroides are quite normal...
    Did you took it for other infections?
    An my other Question: What does KDM say to this?

    Hope you get better soon!
     
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  11. Aubry

    Aubry Senior Member

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    I got IV and oral antibiotics for suspected (late stage) lyme disease (LTT Elispot positive), chlamydia pneumoniae, mycoplasma and suspected Bartonella the first year of my treatment, hereafter I got pulsed antibiotics + probiotics for gut modulation but apparently this didn't work at all so I am curious what my MD will propose next ...
     
  12. Banana94

    Banana94 Senior Member

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    It seems like gut modulation of KDM completely failed. Did you have digestive problems before starting ABX?
    When do you you have your next appointment?
    Keep us updated please :) (If possible)
    I hope KDM will not destroy my gut with his ABX treatment..
    All the best for you Aubry!
     
  13. Aubry

    Aubry Senior Member

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    Before starting treatment 3 years ago I didn't have gut issues at all (at least not noticeable physically). I had my appointment yesterday but he didn't say much, he will look at my whole file again and send a treatment plan. In some it fails in other it seems to work... this kind of approach.
     
  14. Banana94

    Banana94 Senior Member

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    I hope he has a solution that works for you! Are you from belgium?
    Other members also mentioned it: Did you try a low carb diet? It doesn't decreases my bacteroides but it helps me with the gut issues. Didn't you told that Ornidazol helped you decreasing bactericides?
     
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  15. Aubry

    Aubry Senior Member

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    Yes Belgium. Yes certain antibiotics I got in those 2 years gut treatment did decrease bacteroidets but increased others such as streptococcus. So it seems like a never ending story.
     
  16. Banana94

    Banana94 Senior Member

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    Is there no other way to decrease bactericides? If KDM can't fix my gut than I will try a fecal matter transplant...
    I don't know what else to do..
     
  17. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I was having trouble getting lacto and bifido back after antibiotics a year ago, even with lots of high quality probiotics.

    What finally worked was 2 months of Xymogen ProBioMax 350, taken with Seeking Health ProBiota Immune and Thorne FiberMend mixed into yogurt. And a low carb organic Paleo Diet with lots of vegetables.

    Then I switched to PrescriptAssist for 2 months, and then to Symbioflor and Hyperbiotics Pro Woman to fill in strains I was missing.

    The insoluble fiber is necessary to encourage the species you want.
     
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  18. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Your results look really bad. Some genders have been completely wiped out, or maybe they're still there but in non-registering amounts. Only time will tell if the damage is chronic.
    My opinion is that you're just predisposing yourself to IBD with unnecessary longterm use of antibiotics.
    It doesn't make sense, when you target a certain phylum or family then another one will take its place and overgrow. Like you say it's a neverending loop.

    Your gut has likely been damaged by the use of longterm abx for "chronic lyme disease".
    That was the case for me. My diagnosis changed from "chronic lyme disease" to "neuro-gut-immune disorder" overnight, lol. He said i have dysbiosis and that needed to be corrected, yeah no shit sherlock that happens after 3 years of antibiotics for misdiagnosed lyme disease.
    My microbiome looked way better before i went on the lyme-bandwagon, bacteroides and firmicutes were in normal ratio.

    @Learner1 has given some good tips, if you tolerate probiotics that is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  19. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Ofcourse there is, with diet.
     
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  20. Banana94

    Banana94 Senior Member

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    I never took lots of ABX in my life and I also have dysbiosis. So it can also be caused by other reasons..
    What diet do you recommend for decreasing bacteroidetes? I have already tried many, and nothing seems to work..
     

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