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severe osteoporosis

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
Messages
1,287
Location
k8518704 USA
@KIO Here is an article that gives an overview:
https://www.lef.org/magazine/2008/3/Protecting-Bone-And-Arterial-Health-With-Vitamin-K2/Page-01

Perhaps you have heard of LEF.org, which is the Life Extension Foundation. (Yes, they are also a supplement seller.) It's written by a cardiologist. People with osteoporosis seem to also have more calcium in their heart arteries than average, which represents a risk. (Yes, the author also has a book that he is selling.)

The idea is this: a person needs vitamin K2 to make sure that calcium goes to where it is wanted (bones and teeth) and does not go to where it is not wanted (arteries, kidneys, etc). The idea is not yet proven but it seems promising. From what I have seen, the most effective type to use is MK-7, from among the various kinds of vitamin K.

This study happens to use a Japanese food.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=15242015
Promotion of bone formation by fermented soybean (Natto) intake in premenopausal women.
Katsuyama H1, Ideguchi S, Fukunaga M, Fukunaga T, Saijoh K, Sunami S.
Author information
Abstract

A therapeutic agent of vitamin K2 is approved for the treatment of osteoporosis in Japan. However, little is known about the efficacy of dietary intake of vitamin K2 for bone health. We compared the effects of various levels of fermented soybeans (Natto) intake, which contains plenty of vitamin K2, on bone stiffness and bone turnover markers in healthy premenopausal women. Seventy-three healthy premenopausal women were randomly divided into four groups matched for age and parity categories. Natto was supplied as follows: Group 1 (no intake), Group 2 (once per month), Group 3 (once per week) and Group 4 (three times per week). Subjects took Natto at a lunch for 1 y, and the stiffness index by quantitative ultrasound and bone turnover markers were assessed at baseline, 6 mo and 1 y. There was no statistical difference in the stiffness index during the 1 y observation. However, bone specific alkaline phosphatase (BAP) in Group 4 was higher than that in Group 3 at 1 y and undercarboxylated osteocalcin (Glu) in Group 4 was significantly lower than those in Groups 1, 2 and 3 at 6 mo. Logistic regression analysis showed that the risk of reduction of bone formation markers declined to 0.07 in Group 4 based on that in Group 1. In premenopausal women who had to keep the stiffness index as high as possible before menopause, Natto intake may have contributed to the promotion of bone formation.
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
Your bones need a lot more than calcium and magnesium. My doctor recommend OsteoPre by Orthomolecular Products for my osteopenia/mild osteoporosis. It may not be sufficient for severe osteoporosis. A daily dose contains:
1000 IU Vitamin D3 (as Cholecalciferol)
500 mcg Vitamin K1
25 mcg Vitamin K2 as MK7
800 mcg Folic Acid
250 mg Calcium (as Hydroxyapatite, Di-Calcium Malate)
110 mg Phosphorus
150 mg Magnesium
200 mcg Selenium (as Selenium Glycinate Chelate)
1 mg copper (as TRAACS* Copper Glycinate Chelate)
10 mg Manganese (as TRAACS* Manganese Glycinate Chelate)
150 mcg Molybdenum (as TRAACS* Molybdenum Glycinate Chelate)
600 mg Ipriflavone
5 mg Boron (as Bororganic Glycine)


Note that it contains folic acid, which many older women cannot use.
Strontium is also good for bones, but you should not take it within 4 hours of taking calcium.
 

Debbie23

Senior Member
Messages
137
Hello everyone, I'm a long time lurker on this board mainly because I'm a severe patient and find it easier to read rather than post in any forum. I have tbh and say most of the science is above my head, even beyond bad brain fog days! I'm. A bit nervous at saying 'hi' and posting as a result. But 'hi', everyone and thanks for all the interesting insight you guys post, it's helpful and interesting to read, even if i cant contribute. Sorry for any typos, I write anything using an ipad and autocorrect can be both a blessing and a curse!

For nearly the past fourteen years, since the age of thirteen when I totally collapsed and became very severely affected, I've, by necessity, lived most of my life in bed and been totally reliant on a wheelchair when I'm out of it. While I've 'recovered' enough to be classed as 'severely affected' rather than 'very severely affected' I've been stuck at this level of illness for almost the last ten years never getting better but occasionally reverting to being much worse. I'm kind of stuck in bed because when I live life from bed I have periods when I can feel, comparatively for myself I mean, deceptively well. I can do things like read forums like this one and communicate with family etc by email, I've even been able to study off and on over the past few years provided I didn't over exert elsewhere and did it from bed. I've tried living life out of my bed in the past, even very gradually building up to sitting in a specialist desk chair etc. But the ability to do those things and be more cognitively active vanishes rapidly when I'm more physically active and it always, without fail provokes a crash and causes massive amounts of PEM. For example as I said in the past I've been able to study, but only if I do it in bed and in short bursts, sitting at a desk chair, even a specialist one for short periods, causes a severe deterioration that comes on rapidly and lasts for a long time. I think tbh even that may have been too much as studying for a few hours made me ill for the rest of the week but I was reluctant to give it up as I loved it. I've had a mega crash recently due to dental surgery, general anaesthetic always does that to me, which means I may need to delay for the foreseeable future before I try to pick it up. Massively distressing and frustrating.

My mum says that when I'm out of bed for a long time, for example when I've by necessity needed to be in my wheelchair for a long time, I can look and sound as if I've had a stroke. Can barely hold my head up, or maintain posture in my chair, slur my speech, speak very slowly and struggle with word recall etc. That example is not intended to be offensive, it's how my mum describes it after seeing my grandad have strokes and their after effects. I'm hoping to get a specialist arm chair, recommended by my very supportive OT, that will help me to be out of bed while reducing the impact on symptoms but right now I'm stuck. I try as much as possible to load bear when transferring to the commode, shower seat etc. But often even struggle with this. The result is that the prospect of osteoporosis really, really frightens me. Especially as I have hormone issues with endometriosis and early menopause runs in our family.

This thread resonates because I get the most awful pain in my legs, my arms too but less often, and I'm not sure if it's osteoporosis or 'just' ME pains because it often comes and goes and seems migratory, my arms for example tend to hurt when my legs don't and vice versa rather than both hurting together. They can happen at the same time and I do often get nerve troubles in hands like carpal tunnel but it's comparatively rare. What I get frequently is vicious pain in my right elbow however and associated nerve troubles in my right hand. My vitamin D is low, not surprising given how rarely I manage to get out in the sunshine, my typical limit is to sit in the car on a nice day by the seaside, unless I'm having. A very good day in which case I might be able to be pushed in my wheelchair round the small shops around places that aren't to busy, but even this is really, really taxing. If I go somewhere like a supermarket it makes me feel very ill, very quickly. I do go to places like this sometimes, but invariably it makes me really unwell very rapidly. My vitamin D is not helped either by struggling to be in sunlight due to the brightness etc. My lovely GP has put me on calcichew d3 tablets for the foreseeable future. But I am worried by the dreadful pain I'm often in, incase it indicates osteoporosis and do wonder if there's anything else I should, or more likely could, be doing?

My GP and OT have registered concerns about this to me, but accept it totally when I explain my limitations. I think all of us may be at a bit of a loss as to what to do to help as a result. Should I be speaking to my GP about this in greater detail when I have my usual tablet review in a few weeks?

Sorry for the long post! Hopefully people can make sense of it and it's not too much of a ramble!
 

beaker

ME/cfs 1986
Messages
773
Location
USA
{snip}
This thread resonates because I get the most awful pain in my legs, my arms too but less often, and I'm not sure if it's osteoporosis or 'just' ME pains because it often comes and goes and seems migratory, my arms for example tend to hurt when my legs don't and vice versa rather than both hurting together. They can happen at the same time and I do often get nerve troubles in hands like carpal tunnel but it's comparatively rare. What I get frequently is vicious pain in my right elbow however and associated nerve troubles in my right hand. My vitamin D is low, not surprising given how rarely I manage to get out in the sunshine, my typical limit is to sit in the car on a nice day by the seaside, unless I'm having. A very good day in which case I might be able to be pushed in my wheelchair round the small shops around places that aren't to busy, but even this is really, really taxing. If I go somewhere like a supermarket it makes me feel very ill, very quickly. I do go to places like this sometimes, but invariably it makes me really unwell very rapidly. My vitamin D is not helped either by struggling to be in sunlight due to the brightness etc. My lovely GP has put me on calcichew d3 tablets for the foreseeable future. But I am worried by the dreadful pain I'm often in, incase it indicates osteoporosis and do wonder if there's anything else I should, or more likely could, be doing?

My GP and OT have registered concerns about this to me, but accept it totally when I explain my limitations. I think all of us may be at a bit of a loss as to what to do to help as a result. Should I be speaking to my GP about this in greater detail when I have my usual tablet review in a few weeks?

Sorry for the long post! Hopefully people can make sense of it and it's not too much of a ramble!

Welcome and congratulations on making your first post. I do understand how difficult that can be energy wise.

As for your concern on osteoporosis :
From American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons Website :
Most people will reach their peak bone mass between the ages of 25 and 30. By the time we reach age 40, however, we slowly begin to lose bone mass.
At your age you are still reaching your peak mass. You may not get as much density as someone your age who is healthy, but I think it would be extremely rare for you to have osteoporosis at this point.
It sounds more to me like ME/CFS pain.
I have always had terrible burning pain and also deep aches in my bones from this illness.
They move around and come and go in severity, but the pain is pretty constant. Much worse w/ activity and PEM and for reasons no one knows.
The pain for me is quite severe and when I received aggressive pain treatment I was able to function at a higher level ( although still not high. But out of bed much more ) But then I have to be careful and not have a false sense of being better, when it is only the med. Easier to crash that way. ( But I still do anyways )
Just mentioning this, in case you weren't getting much for pain treatment and wanted to talk to your doctor about it.

Best wishes
 

KIO

Messages
27
Location
Lugano - Switzerland
Sherlock, thanks for your contribution!!! :) I looked. It is very interesting, even for the complementary benefits of vitamin K2. I'll see if it is practicable for me.
-------------------------------------------------- -
true that is not bad my translation?
My automatic translator you call google + sixth sense + Revision = my husband to which i cry out of bed: okay translate "xyz" with "&ç§"?
This is complicated because I have no idea of english pronunciation ... but he is very creative in understand me ;)
Shame that often when I'm writing or I could write, him already asleep or not there.
and... calm, when I'm fused, without automatic translator I can not read what I posted! :D
 

KIO

Messages
27
Location
Lugano - Switzerland
.
(...)
This thread resonates because I get the most awful pain in my legs, my arms too but less often, and I'm not sure if it's osteoporosis or 'just' ME pains because it often comes and goes and seems migratory, my arms for example tend to hurt when my legs don't and vice versa rather than both hurting together. They can happen at the same time and I do often get nerve troubles in hands like carpal tunnel but it's comparatively rare. What I get frequently is vicious pain in my right elbow however and associated nerve troubles in my right hand. My vitamin D is low, not surprising given how rarely I manage to get out in the sunshine, my typical limit is to sit in the car on a nice day by the seaside, unless I'm having.

Dear Debbie, I am saddened for your serious condition! Lived at a young age.
Even to me, these your pain seem more typical ME / CFS.
But I know that young people with severe ME / CFS may have osteoporosis.
It may be that long periods in bed, without sun, contribute. But I know people with autoimmune diseases, young people, that move and are also in the light of the sun, and anyway have severe osteoporosis.
I hope that your doctor, and the people who are close to you, it can read up on 'severe ME / CFS in young and osteoporosis'. And that they can ask to clinics that treat patients with ME / CFS what can be done. I for now I do not have ideas to propose. I'm sorry!

And ... Debbie, I have ME / CFS and osteoporosis, and I can distinguish between pain from osteoporosis and those of ME / CFS, are different! Those of osteoporosis suggest an a rheumatic pain, they are in the bones and joints, are fixed, do not migrate, and in general are always equal to themselves. If anything will change a bit if you take a banal infected.
I embrace you!

PS: The supermarkets are terrible even for the "healthy" people! I see some that are deconcentrated shortly after, and later nervous, at the end of the tour they begin to not choose anything, and at checkout seem ready to collapse. For us it is worse! Too much noise, too many stimuli, too many different lights to buy more, and often the smells (chemical) put in the air to influence the purchases.
 
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Debbie23

Senior Member
Messages
137
Welcome and congratulations on making your first post. I do understand how difficult that can be energy wise.

As for your concern on osteoporosis :
From American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons Website :

At your age you are still reaching your peak mass. You may not get as much density as someone your age who is healthy, but I think it would be extremely rare for you to have osteoporosis at this point.
It sounds more to me like ME/CFS pain.
I have always had terrible burning pain and also deep aches in my bones from this illness.
They move around and come and go in severity, but the pain is pretty constant. Much worse w/ activity and PEM and for reasons no one knows.
The pain for me is quite severe and when I received aggressive pain treatment I was able to function at a higher level ( although still not high. But out of bed much more ) But then I have to be careful and not have a false sense of being better, when it is only the med. Easier to crash that way. ( But I still do anyways )
Just mentioning this, in case you weren't getting much for pain treatment and wanted to talk to your doctor about it.

Best wishes

Hi, beaker, thanks so much for the response and the welcome! That's very reassuring about bone mass, thank you.

I can understand what you mean about the burning pain, I often think it's like having white hot shards of glass under your skin and in your bones, I get that along with a kind of gnawing aching pain, not nice at all. I do have tramadol to take on top of codeine and paracetamol, but I hate the side effects of tramadol and will only take it when I'm absolutely desperate, it kills the pain but it makes me feel so, so ill, especially the day after, that I hate taking it.

I can also understand what you mean about a constant pain but where it seems to be affecting moves around the body and varied in severity, that's the same here too. It's interesting what you say about proper pain management making you able to function more. My GP has suggested before that I attend a proper pain management clinic before, despite the difficulties of getting to any clinic I might take her up on it.

Dear Debbie, I am saddened for your serious condition! Lived at a young age.
Even to me, these your pain seem more typical ME / CFS.
But I know that young people with severe ME / CFS may have osteoporosis.
It may be that long periods in bed, without sun, contribute. But I know people with autoimmune diseases, young people, that move and are also in the light of the sun, and anyway have severe osteoporosis.
I hope that your doctor, and the people who are close to you, it can read up on 'severe ME / CFS in young and osteoporosis'. And that they can ask to clinics that treat patients with ME / CFS what can be done. I for now I do not have ideas to propose. I'm sorry!

And ... Debbie, I have ME / CFS and osteoporosis, and I can distinguish between pain from osteoporosis and those of ME / CFS, are different! Those of osteoporosis suggest an a rheumatic pain, they are in the bones and joints, are fixed, do not migrate, and in general are always equal to themselves. If anything will change a bit if you take a banal infected.
I embrace you!

PS: The supermarkets are terrible even for the "healthy" people! I see some that are deconcentrated shortly after, and later nervous, at the end of the tour they begin to not choose anything, and at checkout seem ready to collapse. For us it is worse! Too much noise, too many stimuli, too many different lights to buy more, and often the smells (chemical) put in the air to influence the purchases.

Hi, KIO thank you for the reply. It's very reassuring that you can say it sounds more like ME pain, I'm very grateful for the time and energy in these replies! :) although I'm very sorry to hear you have osteoporosis as well as ME, I embrace you too, and send a lot of good thoughts your way, and the way of everyone with this horrid disease.

I've been ill since I was very young, my mum swears it was a measles vaccine combined with catching chicken pox a very short time later that I had when I was a baby that did the initial damage. That made me really ill apparently, I'm the youngest of four so my mum was well practiced in the usual side effects of vaccines at that time but she says it made me extremely ill beyond any other vaccines any of us had been exposed to. She says she can remember thinking I was going to die as a baby because of it, this was before I was even one. I caught the chicken pox at the same time as this so was really ill with that in top. Interestingly my dad apparently also caught it and was very, very ill as well as me, but while the rest of the family got rid of it easily enough, me and my dad were really ill and struggled. The rest of my siblings have fine enough health, but me and my dad both have ME. So I do wonder if that did the initial damage that didn't really trigger until later. we also caught what seems to have been glandular fever at the same time too, although this wasn't diagnosed at the time; but it was only after this joint illness later on when I was about seven, that we both started to deteriorate and become really unwell. I was prone to recurrent infections, had bad asthma etc. But was still fairly active as a child, we walked miles as we couldn't afford a car and spent hours playing in the local wood swimming, climbing trees etc. Happy times. :) I was poorly and was declining in health before but what led to me totally collapsing and becoming diagnosed with ME was surgery for Endo, when I was thirteen, general anaesthetic always seems to provoke a severe relapse, I've had two since then and they do really weird things to my vision etc. As well as making my general level of illness worse. After my first one I went from being very ill with what I now know was ME but able to walk etc. Even though I couldn't manage school and was home educated, to be completely unable to speak, lift my head, barely able to swallow, barely conscious etc. I was one of the very severely affected sufferers in a darkened room, unable to sit up, needing oxygen, having seizures, everything you associate with very serve patients. So I think I'm very lucky to be as 'well' as I am now, given how poorly I was then even if recovery seems to have plateaued at this level for me for around the last ten years. Not that doesn't mean that ME at any level, even it's mildest form, isn't horrid to live with and we should be grateful for it, but hopefully people know what I'm trying to say! Brain fog can make wording awkward sometimes! :)

I do get what you mean about the effect of supermarkets even on healthy people. I very rarely go to supermarkets but sometimes it's nice to do something 'normal' even though you know you will pay for it afterwards. It is indeed the stimulus in that kind if environment, noise and lighting especially, I find hard to cope with.

Thank you again for the replies, I'll stop hijacking this thread now! Thank you for your patience and replies.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Dear Debbie23 and all,
It may help to point out that osteoporosis is completely painless unless you break a bone. It is a common misconception that osteoporosis of itself causes pain, which it does not. So your pains are not due to osteoporosis.

That does not mean that bone calcium may not be low from immobility. This is a common problem and should be investigated and treated in anyone who is immobile, even a young person.
 

Debbie23

Senior Member
Messages
137
Dear Debbie23 and all,
It may help to point out that osteoporosis is completely painless unless you break a bone. It is a common misconception that osteoporosis of itself causes pain, which it does not. So your pains are not due to osteoporosis.

That does not mean that bone calcium may not be low from immobility. This is a common problem and should be investigated and treated in anyone who is immobile, even a young person.

Thank you for the reply, Jonathan. Although it doesn't make the pain any nicer to live with, it is at least reassuring that it's not due to osteoporosis.

My GP has put me on calcichew D3 tablets indefinitely. But I can discuss this with her to see if there's anything else I can, or need to do about bone health while I'm not able to be more mobile.

Many thanks for your time, it is most appreciated. :)
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
My guess is that the K2 is so low because of all the other things in it. The calcium is also unusually low. If you have all of the co-factors that something needs, you may not need as much of it.
 

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
Messages
1,287
Location
k8518704 USA
From the interview done by Cees Vermeer in 2010 with Mercola, he focuses more on preventing artery calcification than osteoporosis but even so I'll point out that he recommends 180mcg/day of MK-7. He also says that he informally prefers 360mcg for himself. He say that 45mcg is the minimum effective dose.
I will also stress to others in this thread who are taking calcium (but without sufficient vit K) that there is evidence that doing so increases the chance of cardiac death (an extra 4 out of 1000, if I recall correctly). That would be presumably because the extra calcium goes to where it doesn't belong, such as the arteries.
 

KIO

Messages
27
Location
Lugano - Switzerland
Dear Debbie23 and all,
It may help to point out that osteoporosis is completely painless unless you break a bone. It is a common misconception that osteoporosis of itself causes pain, which it does not. So your pains are not due to osteoporosis.

That does not mean that bone calcium may not be low from immobility. This is a common problem and should be investigated and treated in anyone who is immobile, even a young person.

Dear Professor Jonathan Edwards, thanks for the contribution. But it it is not absolutely my experience!
The first thing that did think my doctors it was osteoporosis were bone pain.
Everything I've read on osteoporosis (sites dedicated to the topic) said: "In general gives no pain", "is almost always a silent disease", "Only in cases fairly infrequent osteoporosis results from the outset the appearance of pain "(my case!) So on topic of the pain in Osteoporosis is all "in general ..." or "rarely ...", but no one says "absolutely never".
The spinal, and/or lumbosacral pain in osteoporosis are known .. but I admit that microfractures may be suspected.
As the scientific world cannot well explain the phenomenon, microfractures are often invoked.
But increasing studies that try to understand the pain in osteoporosis are saying it "is not well understood but it might be."

In my case the main diseases that can cause bone's demineralization were excluded.
The bone scintigraphy showed many arthrosic process, curiously different I did not know to have them because they do not cause pain. So I exclude from the reasoning processes all the joint arthrosic process, for safety also other joints, also exclude all pain of muscle and tendon, and visceral pain. And exclude all pain that somehow, someone who is not me, could make the suggestion of involvement of other issues.
To me hurt, among others: the iliac crests, ischium and pubic bone, sternum, ulna and radius, humerus, tibia.
The pain is weak, dull, constant, but if I lean on something hard becomes strong.

After a single injection of bisphosphonates (after the storm of problems that caused the hospitalization of a week with wheelchair and drip painkillers), for 2 or 3 months all those bone pain that I have all year, have passed and there was a great silence of this backgound "murmur painful."

http://www.ailafondazione.it/aila_server/osteoporosi_malsociale.html
"Il dolore osteoporotico compare pian piano, raramente si irradia in altre sedi, aumenta con il tempo e con gli sforzi fisici. Spesso si manifesta sollevando un peso o raccogliendo un oggetto da terra. E’ un dolore cupo, continuo che si riduce solo con il riposo. Non di rado si possono verificare microfratture o fratture vere e proprie a livello delle ultime vertebre toraciche o delle prime lombari.
Il dolore osteoporotico può presentarsi in vari quadri clinici ed è per questo che è necessario distinguere la forma generalizzata, post-menopausale o senile, da quella distrettuale, permanente o temporanea."


translate:
"The osteoporotic pain appears slowly, rarely radiates elsewhere, increases with time and physical effort. It is often manifested by lifting weights or picking an object from the ground. It 'a dark pain, continuous, decreases only with the rest. not infrequently microcracks or fractures may occur on level of the last thoracic vertebrae or first lumbar.
The osteoporosis pain can occur in various clinical conditions and that is why it is necessary to distinguish the generalized form, post-menopausal or senile, from district, permanent or temporary. "

A not very recent study:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1477-7525-3-78.pdf
Health and Quality of Life Outcomes - Research Open Access - Quality of life in post-menopausal osteoporosis
Maria Luisa Bianchi*1, Maria Rosa Orsini2, Silvia Saraifoger1, Sergio Ortolani1, Giovanni Radaelli3 and Simonetta Betti2
Published: 01 December 2005
"Another extremely important aspect evidenced by our
study was the presence of pain in a significant number of
patients before the occurrence of vertebral fractures (clinical
or even morphometric). Osteoporosis is generally
considered a silent disease before the occurrence of fractures,
but we found that pain was often present in the
group of women without known fractures (a clear difference
with respect to the control group).
Chronic pain in
osteoporosis is poorly considered even in the presence of
vertebral fractures [31-33], and it is obviously even more
underestimated without them. There is now ample consensus
that undertreated chronic pain may become "a disease
within the disease" and is often a cause of subclinical
or clinical depression [34,35]. Our study demonstrates
that physicians dealing with osteoporotic patients must
pay serious attention to the problem of chronic pain, and
even in the absence of fractures"
For References see PDF, please.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, unfortunately being sick for 47 year old I've heard too many times "that... can not be", and on the same thing years later they told me "yes! now we know that it is ..."
Very cordially and with esteem!
 

KIO

Messages
27
Location
Lugano - Switzerland
From the interview done by Cees Vermeer in 2010 with Mercola, he focuses more on preventing artery calcification than osteoporosis but even so I'll point out that he recommends 180mcg/day of MK-7. He also says that he informally prefers 360mcg for himself. He say that 45mcg is the minimum effective dose.
I will also stress to others in this thread who are taking calcium (but without sufficient vit K) that there is evidence that doing so increases the chance of cardiac death (an extra 4 out of 1000, if I recall correctly). That would be presumably because the extra calcium goes to where it doesn't belong, such as the arteries.

Hi Sherlock!
Thanks for the updates. I'm reading about this topic. I see that there is no consensus on the ideal dosage of MK -? ... I will look into.
I'm reading more and more that the intake of calcium for osteoporosis: or that is not the solution, or is dangerous to other aspects of health (blood vessels, for example), or not need, or need only under certain conditions, or ..., or, ... :(
 

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
Messages
1,287
Location
k8518704 USA
I'm reading more and more that the intake of calcium for osteoporosis: or that is not the solution, or is dangerous to other aspects of health (blood vessels, for example), or not need, or need only under certain conditions, or ..., or, ...
I think it was known 3 decades ago that simply taking calcium alone was not a help. Then it was said 2 decades ago that weight-bearing exercise would be the solution - but it was not the solution. Neither is vitamin D.

So maybe K2 will be the crucial missing part of the solution? It is being said that there is no harm/toxicity in taking K2, even in very, very high doses. The cost is roughly US$10 per month.

Here are some of the Japanese studies using lots of K2 MK-4 (menatetrenone). Very roughly, 1,000 mcg of MK-4 (which is 45mg) seemingly gives the same benefit as only 1 mcg of MK-7.

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=11793169
Effect of menatetrenone on bone mineral density and incidence of vertebral fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis: a comparison with the effect of etidronate.
2001
[MK-4 helped but was not as good as the bisphosphonate drug named etidronate.]


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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11180916
Effect of combined administration of vitamin D3 and vitamin K2 on bone mineral density of the lumbar spine in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis.
2000
These findings indicate that combined administration of vitamin D3 and vitamin K2, compared with calcium administration, appears to be useful in increasing the BMD of the lumbar spine in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis.

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17274493
Menatetrenone (vitamin K2) and bone quality in the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis.
A review article from 2006
Menatetrenone improves bone architecture in ovariectomized rats, and the mineral/ matrix ratio of the bone in terms of matrix volume and bone strength (without increasing bone mass) in rats with magnesium deficiency. Thus, available evidence supports an effect of menatetrenone on bone quality during osteoporosis treatment.
So it seems that Bone Mineral Density is not the only thing to be looked at, since bone strength can be increased by improving the complex structure of the bone.

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By the way, the maker of the MK-7 that was used by Vermeer in his studies is MenaQ-7, which comes from Japan. He said (in the 2005 interview) that the quailty is very high. It is used in various American vitamin brands, like VitaminWorld. It is gotten from natto, the fermented soybean food, made by using the special bacteria. Natto is slimy and supposedly smells bad. :nervous:

But Mercola uses MK-7 derived from fermenting chickpeas - not from fermenting soybeans. Apparently, his customers don't like the idea of GMO soybeans. It is very expensive. I don't mind GMO soybeans.

 
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Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Dear Professor Jonathan Edwards, thanks for the contribution. But it it is not absolutely my experience!

The problem is, KIO, that we all have lots of other reasons for back and limb pain and these get put down to osteoporosis. Pain occurs in acute local osteoporosis, or Sudeck's atrophy, but not otherwise as far as I know. In thirty years I never met a patient with pain due to osteoporosis per se as far as I am aware. The quotes you give provide no evidence to indicate it is the osteoporosis that causes the pain. Bisphosphonates probably stop all bone derived pain because they stop remodelling - so they are likely to help pain from disc damage or arthrosis too. Osteoporosis is a very real problem but not because of pain, to my mind.
 
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Firstly, I think that osteoporosis is very much under reported in this disease, probably due to patients being unaware that they should have bone density scans.

Secondly, for those living in the US there is a drug called Forteo an rDNA that is delivered by subcutaneous injection( so there is at least no stomach problem with taking it) the downside, it is very expensive but for those meeting certain financial and insurance criteria, there is a patient assistance program where you may be able to obtain it for free. I have just finished a 2 year course and my spine increase by over 30% making it almost normal, and my limbs by about 12%.

Hope this helps.
 
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Groggy Doggy

Guest
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1,130
Firstly, I think that osteoporosis is very much under reported in this disease, probably due to patients being unaware that they should have bone density scans.

Secondly, for those living in the US there is a drug called Forteo an rDNA that is delivered by subcutaneous injection( so there is at least no stomach problem with taking it) the downside, it is very expensive but for those meeting certain financial and insurance criteria, there is a patient assistance program where you may be able to obtain it for free. I have just finished a 2 year course and my spine increase by over 30% making it almost normal, and my limbs by about 12%.

Hope this helps.

--

Forteo has been successfully used to treat ME/CFS patients (treated via the theory ME/CFS is a metabolic disorder for a subset of patients). Yes, it's very expensive (about $2k for a months supply). Did you notice any improvements besides your osteoporosis?
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
@KIO -

I can't speak for Dr. Edwards, and he can eloquently speak for himself, but I do agree that osteoporosis doesn't cause pain in and of itself. However, no one is saying you don't have pain, or that you don't have osteoporosis - just that they may be 2 separate things with 2 separate causes. I'm not sure if inflammation can increase the risk of developing osteoporosis and also cause pain - so they may have a common cause ultimately.

I would treat anything Dr. Mercola says with extreme skepticism. Much of his work is not scientifically grounded and is more about pop health and making money. I would see some specialists and trust their advice, preferably at excellent university medical centers. It is true that drugs like fosamax and boniva are not without risks, but many patients do benefit from them, and you have to weigh the risks and benefits. There is also some preliminary evidence that it may be possible to predict side effects to some degree (not completely) based on genetic information - it might give you an idea how much risk you really are at. I stress that results are preliminary.

i would echo the K2-MK7 advice given above by @Sherlock and others. I'm a man in his 30's with osteopenia, which is quite uncommon. My endo has me taking 2 90mcg Vitamin K2 MK7 softgels per day (morning and evening) - interestingly the same dose recommended above. I have not seen side effects at all. He told me that while Vitamin K1 affects coagulation, vitamin K2 does not, and from what I've seen the evidence tends to support this. It can't hurt to test coagulation to be safe.

Google the "calcium paradox." This refers to the way in which some people lose calcium from their bones but build up calcium in their coronary (and other) arteries. Obviously this is a bad thing. The question is why, when the body is given sufficient calcium, it tends to go to the arteries and not to the bones. We don't really know why - but there is a fair bit of evidence that K2 MK7 can play a role in reversing this dysregulation.

Not useful for me, but if you are a woman, hormone replacement can slow, halt, and possibly even reverse loss of bone density. It may be worth considering, although it is also not without risk. Really, nothing is without risk - but it's about weighing risks and benefits, and you need to have this discussion with your doctor who understands your particular medical situation.

Exercise and weight bearing activity is also important for strong bones. Sedentary individuals do lose bone density. Many ME patients, including me, have noticed we can lift weights normally. I have normal strength and can lift heavy objects without problems, but anything that requires sustained energy output causes problems. The anaerobic energy pathways are largely intact in ME (used short term for high bursts of energy). The aerobic pathways are very abnormal (as evidenced in my case by my extremely low anaerobic threshold on cardiopulmonary exercise testing). So you may be able to add some resistance training if you pace yourself and don't do it for very long at a time to keep it anaerobic, and this may help with osteoporosis without worsening ME.

Lastly, I would suggest you try to get your bone pain worked up. There are many, many potential causes, most of which are treatable if not curable. You obviously have some real problems stemming from the bone pain itself even if it has nothing to do with the osteoporosis, and if you can figure out why, you might be able to fix it or manage it.