Serotonin, antidepressants and the 2 biovista drugs

[knackers323]

Bump

 

[Rand56]

Prozac was the worst drug ever when I trialed it many years ago.

 

[catly]

I think the last word on the Biovista drugs was that they were trying to get funding for clinical trials. That is if I can remember it correctly from the Solve MECFS update back in August.

I don't think anyone knows what the drugs are that they identified.

 

[knackers323]

So they first identified these possible treatments a year and a half ago and they are only now looking for interest to start running trials?

I fear barring spontaneous remission, anyone who is currently alive and gets CFS is f@!ked. There is just no urgency and everything takes too long

 

[catly]

I got the impression that they've been trying to get funding for awhile. Guess not many investors see ME as a good opportunity.

 

[Ema]

i think there were studies on moclobemide, a reversible MAOI, has shown to be helpful in cfs/me, supposedly less side effects then traditional MAOI's.
Doesnt seem to be alot of people who have tried this med or other MAOI's for cfs/me on PR??

@heapsreal, @beaverfury, did either of you ever try moclobemide?

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal, @beaverfury, did either of you ever try moclobemide?

no, never tried it, sorry.

 

[beaverfury]

@Ema I never got around to trying Moclobemide either. I'm still very happy with Stablon( tianeptine), but the cost is prohibitive.

I was pleased to read this on wiki

-" Tianeptine research was revolutionised in July 2014 with publication of the unexpected discovery that tianeptine is a full agonist at the μ and δ opioid receptors.["

Moclobemide would be next on my list to try if money runs short and I get desperate. It's on the Pharmaceuticals benefit scheme in Aus so it would be cheap to take.
I think it would tend to make me agitated though, just like my Deprenyl experiment. Highly motivating but highly freaking annoying. Sleep was a problem.

I am determined never to take zoloft again, or any SSRI.

 

[beaverfury]

I fear barring spontaneous remission, anyone who is currently alive and gets CFS is f@!ked.

That seems a fair assessment to me. I might put that slogan on t-shirts and start selling them for advocacy.

 

[heapsreal]

@Ema I never got around to trying Moclobemide either. I'm still very happy with Stablon( tianeptine), but the cost is prohibitive.

I was pleased to read this on wiki

-" Tianeptine research was revolutionised in July 2014 with publication of the unexpected discovery that tianeptine is a full agonist at the μ and δ opioid receptors.["

Moclobemide would be next on my list to try if money runs short and I get desperate. It's on the Pharmaceuticals benefit scheme in Aus so it would be cheap to take.
I think it would tend to make me agitated though, just like my Deprenyl experiment. Highly motivating but highly freaking annoying. Sleep was a problem.

I am determined never to take zoloft again, or any SSRI.

If stablon is helpful but costly this link might be helpful for you.
http://nootrabiolabs.com/tieneptine/tianeptine-powder-1g.html

cheers!!

 

[beaverfury]

If stablon is helpful but costly this link might be helpful for you.
http://nootrabiolabs.com/tieneptine/tianeptine-powder-1g.html

cheers!!

Thanks, heaps

Yeah, the powder form is an option I haven't tried yet. Far cheaper. I have my own capping machine so I will give it a go.

 

[heapsreal]

Thanks, heaps

Yeah, the powder form is an option I haven't tried yet. Far cheaper. I have my own capping machine so I will give it a go.

at a guess, what size cap would be close to a 12.5mg dose, triple O size maybe??

 

[beaverfury]

at a guess, what size cap would be close to a 12.5mg dose, triple O size maybe??

I'm thinking size 1, which is two sizes smaller than the '00' capsule filler I bought. Bugger.

 

[nandixon]

@Ema I never got around to trying Moclobemide either. I'm still very happy with Stablon( tianeptine), but the cost is prohibitive.

I was pleased to read this on wiki

-" Tianeptine research was revolutionised in July 2014 with publication of the unexpected discovery that tianeptine is a full agonist at the μ and δ opioid receptors.["

Moclobemide would be next on my list to try if money runs short and I get desperate. It's on the Pharmaceuticals benefit scheme in Aus so it would be cheap to take.
I think it would tend to make me agitated though, just like my Deprenyl experiment. Highly motivating but highly freaking annoying. Sleep was a problem.

I am determined never to take zoloft again, or any SSRI.

In the full text of the paper, The atypical antidepressant and neurorestorative agent tianeptine is a μ-opioid receptor agonist, the authors state:

We note a striking similarity between these cellular and circuit-level effects of tianeptine and those exerted by direct NMDA receptor antagonists, which also show rapid onset of antidepressant effects.

One implication, I think, is that tianeptine might be a very safe alternative to ketamine, which has sometimes been useful in ME/CFS (apparently).

(Note also that the researchers found that tianeptine has the opposite effect of naltrexone at the mu opioid receptor. LDN horribly exacerbated my fatigue, so the opposite sounds good.)

I didn't realize tianeptine was available online so I've now ordered some. (@adreno previously mentioned tianeptine to me.)

My interest is in its ability to potentially have an opposite effect to SSRI's with respect to brain serotonin. (SSRI's also horribly exacerbate my fatigue.)

(Tianeptine is able to lower free plasma serotonin levels, and increase platelet serotonin, which are not a measure of brain serotonin, but which the Venezuelan researcher, Fuad Lechin, has found useful in a number of seemingly unrelated conditions. See, as just one example, Tianeptine, plasma serotonin, and pulmonary hypertension.)

 

[nandixon]

I tried the tianeptine at the usual dose of 12.5 mg two or three times a day. (I used what I believe to be a very high quality powder purchased from the source that @heapsreal also mentioned in the Members Only section.)

It was initially very promising and gave a good energy lift for about a week. In the roughly 17 years I've suffered with ME/CFS, and having tried perhaps a couple hundred things (and seen dozens of doctors), only a handful of things have lasted even more than one day. So it was pretty disappointing when it stopped working.

I'm next hoping to try moclobemide. A few years ago I tried phenelzine (Nardil), based on this study:
Randomized, double blind, controlled placebo-phase in trial of low dose phenelzine in the chronic fatigue syndrome

And it was actually the best thing I've ever tried for energy EXCEPT that, at the same time it also made me super tired. I know that sounds contradictory, but that's the only way I can explain it. I had to use large amounts of caffeine with it. After about a year (I think) it stopped working and just made me feel tired with no energy boost.

I'm hoping perhaps the moclobemide might work and give the energy boost without the tiredness.

 

[heapsreal]

I tried the tianeptine at the usual dose of 12.5 mg two or three times a day. (I used what I believe to be a very high quality powder purchased from the source that @heapsreal also mentioned in the Members Only section.)

It was initially very promising and gave a good energy lift for about a week. In the roughly 17 years I've suffered with ME/CFS, and having tried perhaps a couple hundred things (and seen dozens of doctors), only a handful of things have lasted even more than one day. So it was pretty disappointing when it stopped working.

I'm next hoping to try moclobemide. A few years ago I tried phenelzine (Nardil), based on this study:
Randomized, double blind, controlled placebo-phase in trial of low dose phenelzine in the chronic fatigue syndrome

And it was actually the best thing I've ever tried for energy EXCEPT that, at the same time it also made me super tired. I know that sounds contradictory, but that's the only way I can explain it. I had to use large amounts of caffeine with it. After about a year (I think) it stopped working and just made me feel tired with no energy boost.

I'm hoping perhaps the moclobemide might work and give the energy boost without the tiredness.

What about trying it on an as required basis??

 

[nandixon]

What about trying it on an as required basis??

I guess that might be possible with the tianeptine. Perhaps if I take a long enough break from it (a wash out) it might start working again when used on an intermittent basis. A big problem though is that it has a very short half-life, and even during the period it was working each dose only lasted for a couple hours at best (higher doses caused more fatigue).

 

[heapsreal]

I guess that might be possible with the tianeptine. Perhaps if I take a long enough break from it (a wash out) it might start working again when used on an intermittent basis. A big problem though is that it has a very short half-life, and even during the period it was working each dose only lasted for a couple hours at best (higher doses caused more fatigue).

Yes short half life. im suprised they havent come out with a slow release formula??

 

[minkeygirl]

@nandixon I was just looking at the Maclobemide which I found at an online rx.

Have you looked into kava? I think it works the same way. There are kava forums that talk about what strains and how to to cook it.

 

[nandixon]

@minkeygirl
I tried kava many years ago and it was much more of a relaxing effect than an energizing one, and the latter is what I need. (I was trying it for sleep at the time.) I think its MAO inhibition ability is probably pretty weak.