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Seeing Dr John Chia on Friday, What Questions Should I Ask?

H

Hope01

Messages
14
Jesse2233 said:
IV matrine is even more effective but he can't give it here (didn't explain why). Studies in China (written in Chinese) show 2 months IV matrine has 97% effectiveness for chronic coxsackie B myocarditis vs 0% in placebo
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Im pretty sure he is referring to this study:
"Chen et al., Therapeutic effect of kangke injection on viral myocarditis and its anticoxsackie virus mechanism, Chinese Journal of Integrated Traditional and Western Medicine 1997; 17(4), 207-209)."

The study is quoted in his patent for oxymatrine.
https://www.google.com/patents/US8198293
"Clinically, intravenous matrine has been used to treat viral myocarditis in countries such as China. In one placebo-controlled study, more than 90% of the patients with chronic Coxsackievirus B myocarditis had an improvement of cardiac function, increase in lymphocyte number and function, and loss of viral markers when treated with intravenous matrine, as compared to 0% in the placebo-treated group."

My question is does anyone know if this study determined the type of Coxsackie B virus these patients with myocarditis had? I can only find the abstract not the full study and it only mentions "anti-Coxsackie group B virus neutralizing antibodies" but not the specific ones.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/9863092
Does anyone have the full study?
It would be interesting to see replications of this study with IV matrine to see if it has as good as result on patients with other symptoms (GI issues, myalgia, fatigue, etc) known to be caused by this virus and specifically the different CVB types. I understand that its a Th2 to Th1 shifter so the type of CVB shouldn't be as important as say in a targeted antiviral.
However with a more than 90% patient improvement response in symptoms with IV matrine compared to 50% with equilibrant it is definitely worth further investigation.
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
Hope01 said:
However with a more than 90% patient improvement response in symptoms with IV matrine compared to 50% with equilibrant it is definitely worth further investigation.
Click to expand...

I've previously had a brief look to find matrine ampoules or vials for injection in China, and they definitely are available, as you can see by the following two Google Image searches in the Chinese language:

苦参注射 = matrine injection

苦参碱静脉注射 = matrine intravenous

Some of these webpages showing matrine injectable products are informational only; others are wholesale only (wholesale websites can be distinguished by having no "BUY" button next to the product, and instead have an "ENQUIRY" button).

Others do appear to sell matrine injections retail. For example, this Chinese website sells a whole range of Kushen injections for veterinary and livestock use (Ku Shen = Sophora root = the herb that matrine is found in); the website has this matrine injection product for sale.


If you use Google Chrome to view these links, it has built-in translation to English. Otherwise you can paste the URLs in Google Translate to get an English translation.
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
Jesse2233 said:
Thinking of trying it Hip?
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I might do, although I am not sure is that website selling it ships internationally. I think you can also get injectable oxymatrine as well as injectable matrine. One may be better than the other.
 
Gingergrrl

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
tntntwins said:
He wants to clear my daughters pericarditis first before starting the equilibrant
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I was curious what tests he used to diagnose the pericarditis (or if it was already diagnosed by a cardiologist prior to your appt with Dr. Chia)? I was also curious if he treats pericarditis with antibiotics or IVIG or something else? Thanks in advance for any info.
 
Gingergrrl

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
tntntwins said:
@Gingergrrl my daughter has had two echocardiograms and a CT in the last year. He put her on Colchicine and Indocin.
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Thanks and I was curious what tests were used to diagnosis pericarditis b/c I went through this w/my Cardio in 2014 (for possible myocarditis) but had an Echo and Cardiac CT and he said both were negative.

Did he say why he chose two anti-inflammatories vs. an antibiotic or IVIG?
 
Sancar

Sancar

Sick of being sick ~
Messages
98
Location
So Cal USA
@tntntwins ~ may I ask "He" who/or which Dr prescribed the Colchicine and Indocin combo? Also what was the doseage? Does your daughter have any symptoms of idiopathic gout as well? Personally I suffer from pericarditis along with sever angina that leave me flat on my back. I was diagnosed with pericarditis when I was 17 (a long time ago). I maintained it with no problem for decades on Inderal. Now I take a mantenice dose and Colchicine for idiopathic gout.
@Hip - A question for you, do you know of another function for 'antiviral' or 'immune modulating' effect Colchicine could have? I noted that a few ME/CFS Drs use it for thief patients~~ Thank U
 
Sancar

Sancar

Sick of being sick ~
Messages
98
Location
So Cal USA
@Gingergrrl - From my cardio history (which is extensive) Echo and CT don't always reveal pericarditis. The swelling can be very subtle, yet none the less something to take seriously. In my case I know when I have inflammation due to angina and difficulty breathing.
I had to see an Elctro Cardiologist...
 
Gingergrrl

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Sancar said:
@Gingergrrl - From my cardio history (which is extensive) Echo and CT don't always reveal pericarditis. The swelling can be very subtle, yet none the less something to take seriously. In my case I know when I have inflammation due to angina and difficulty breathing.
I had to see an Elctro Cardiologist...
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@Sancar I saw three cardios total, had several EKG's, several Echos, a heart cat scan, blood work, etc. I was in the hospital on a cardiac unit for five days in 2014. My cardio (who is still my doctor but I haven't seen him in a long time b/c he has nothing further to offer) said emphatically that I did not have myocarditis or pericarditis, etc. I was not convinced at the time b/c of my shortness of breath and angina like you mentioned.

That was why I was so curious how @tntntwins daughter was diagnosed but it sounds like it was via Echo & CT scan (both of which I had). When you saw the electro cardio (I saw one, too), which tests did you have that finally confirmed that you had pericarditis?

Part of why I don't think I have it is b/c I never felt "sick" and I never had a fever or other symptoms that went with it. I no longer get angina unless I really push it and have learned what I can and cannot do. (Not in the sense of delayed PEM versus in the moment b/c reactions are immediate for me with zero delay). My cardio and all docs feel my issues are due to dysautonomia and muscle weakness from auto-antibodies. But I always have lingering doubts!
 
Sancar

Sancar

Sick of being sick ~
Messages
98
Location
So Cal USA
@Gingergrrl - June 2015 I had a heart attack. I went to a cardio specialist who performed an Angiogram. The "swelling" thus the pericarditis wasn't 'especially notable' but was there. It explains a lot due to angina flares. Like you I have been diagnosed with dysautonomia. I was diagnosed by another Dr with POTS?!? I have trouble with angina when I try to take equalibrient. I've tried different doses. I end up the same. I wonder what the Colchicine and/or Indocin inhibit with regard to pericarditis?
FYI ~ glad you are still on IVIG! Who's I could:ill:
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
Sancar said:
@Hip - A question for you, do you know of another function for 'antiviral' or 'immune modulating' effect Colchicine could have? I noted that a few ME/CFS Drs use it for thief patients~~ Thank U
Click to expand...

Colchicine inhibits retrograde axonal transport (ref: 1), and axonal transport allows viruses to use nerves as transport routes in the body. Dr Chia has pointed out that enteroviruses in the stomach may travel along the vagus nerve (which runs from the stomach to the brain) and enter the brain.

I wonder if inhibition of retrograde axonal transport might reduce the flow of viruses along the vagus, assuming there is such a flow in the first place, which means that fewer viruses arrive at the brain. Or we look at ME/CFS from the Michael VanElzakker vagus nerve infection hypothesis, inhibition of RAT might reduce viral loads within the vagus itself, thereby reducing ME/CFS symptoms.
 
Gingergrrl

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Sancar said:
@Gingergrrl - June 2015 I had a heart attack.
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I had no idea and am so sorry to hear that! Did you have any "traditional" triggers such as blocked arteries or high BP or do you feel it was triggered by the ME/CFS?

Sancar said:
I went to a cardio specialist who performed an Angiogram. The "swelling" thus the pericarditis wasn't 'especially notable' but was there.
Click to expand...

So it was an angiogram that revealed slight swelling which confirmed the pericarditis? I've never had an angiogram and now remembering back when I was on cardiac unit, my doc said that the gold standard to see an infection in the heart was a cardiac biopsy and they are not done in the US. I do know of someone who had a biopsy like this in Germany.

Sancar said:
Like you I have been diagnosed with dysautonomia. I was diagnosed by another Dr with POTS?!?
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In my case I truly have dysautonomia & POTS and they are not misdiagnoses and are huge contributing factors (but are far from the whole story for me). And I don't mean that they are misdiagnoses for you (and not sure if that is what you are thinking in your own case)? Do you feel the doctors tried to say everything was due to dysautonomia when you'd had an actual heart attack and pericarditis?!!!

Another reason that I don't think I have pericarditis is b/c I read that people often feel worse and can't breathe lying flat and for me it's the opposite and I breathe great lying flat and have trouble when standing/walking.

Sancar said:
FYI ~ glad you are still on IVIG!
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Thank you and am hoping my insurance will allow me to continue w/this treatment.

Sancar said:
Who's I could:ill:
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I'm not sure what this means? Did you try IVIG and it made you feel sicker and you wish you could tolerate it?
 
Jesse2233

Jesse2233

Senior Member
Messages
1,942
Location
Southern California
Hip said:
I might do, although I am not sure is that website selling it ships internationally. I think you can also get injectable oxymatrine as well as injectable matrine. One may be better than the other.
Click to expand...

Chia mentioned matrine tho obviously he uses oxymatrine in Equilibrant
 
Sancar

Sancar

Sick of being sick ~
Messages
98
Location
So Cal USA
Hip said:
Colchicine inhibits retrograde axonal transport (ref: 1), and axonal transport allows viruses to use nerves as transport routes in the body. Dr Chia has pointed out that enteroviruses in the stomach may travel along the vagus nerve (which runs from the stomach to the brain) and enter the brain.

I wonder if inhibition of retrograde axonal transport might reduce the flow of viruses along the vagus, assuming there is such a flow in the first place, which means that fewer viruses arrive at the brain. Or we look at ME/CFS from the Michael VanElzakker vagus nerve infection hypothesis, inhibition of RAT might reduce viral loads within the vagus itself, thereby reducing ME/CFS symptoms.
Click to expand...
@Hip ~ Wow- that makes a lot of sense. That is basically the same transport mode for Parkinson's which is "nerve damage", to our cells. (not to over simplify) Pardon me but who is Michael VanElzakker? Do you have an article he published? I would really appreciate a link or reference. T
Hank you Hip for the great knowledge you share, very much appreciated.
 
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