• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Scientists want to train kids to be bulls**t detectors regarding health claims

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Our world is awash in bullshit health claims. These scientists want to train kids to spot them.
http://www.vox.com/2016/10/6/13079754/teaching-critical-thinking-schools-health-claims
Its mission, according to Sir Iain Chalmers, the Cochrane Collaboration co-founder who’s co-leading it, is to teach children to "detect bullshit when bullshit is being presented to them."
The researchers designed teaching materials, lesson plans, and cartoon-filled workbooks for kids about the reliability of medical treatments. And they’ve tested them out on more than 15,000 kids in a randomized controlled trial in Uganda.[...]

This study could be the beginning of a recipe book for how create little armies of bullshit detectors. These bullshit detectors would, in theory, be able to tell the difference between a helpful kind of doctor and a Dr. Oz, a useful medicine and a harmful one, and whether a study was designed to give reliable answers.[...]

The bible of health bullshit detection
One of the indispensable readings for anyone interested in evidence-based medicine is Testing Treatments(downloadable for free). The basic idea behind the book, as Chalmers puts it, is that "you don’t need to be a scientist to think critically and ask good questions." In plain language, he and the book’s co-authors explain concepts people need to understand in order to sort reliable health advice from nonsense.

In that spirit, around the time a new edition of the book was published in 2012, Andy Oxman, a co-investigator on the Uganda trial and a research director at the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, approached Chalmers and said, "Why don’t we fish out the key concepts in Testing Treatments and see whether we can teach them to primary school children in Uganda?"[...]

"We are trying to teach children that stories are usually an unreliable basis for assessing the effect of treatments," Nsangi explained, adding that stories amount to anecdotal evidence. The kids are also learning to watch out for the perverting effects of conflicts of interest, and to recognize that all treatments carry both harms and benefits and that large, dramatic effects from a treatment are really, really rare.

 

Hutan

Senior Member
Messages
1,099
Location
New Zealand
First reaction to seeing Cochrane and 'bullshit detectors' in the same sentence was a snort of derision.

Second reaction was 'what do we know about Iain Chalmers?'. He's a 'Sir', never a good sign of course. If I ever knew something about him, I've forgotten. But I'm sure plenty of people here will know lots.

Is there any chance of putting the facts of PACE in front of him and getting him to push for an update to the Cochrane views on GET in the manner of the AHRQ? A change in the Cochrane recommendation would be enormously influential.

(I fully expect to be informed that Iain and Simon have family holidays together or something...)

ETA:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...c-misconduct-chalmers-1990.21379/#post-326203
An old thread discussing Chalmers' papers calling for research transparency
 
Last edited:

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
if it were only so simple (anecdotal evidence = bad, large trial = good)

According to this we must not believe that GET is harmful and must believe that CBT is effective.


The bible of health bullshit detection
One of the indispensable readings for anyone interested in evidence-based medicine isTesting Treatments(downloadable for free)

Foreword Ben Goldacre

I think I will skip this one.
 
Last edited:

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
On the positive side, I think a well taught critical thinking course in schools is a brilliant idea.

And seriously, has anyone got the energy to put together all the documentation on the PACE debacle and ask him to practice what he preaches? (I'm not volunteering).
 

Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
Messages
1,184
Location
Bristol
In theory it is a great idea to teach children to detect bullshit. Now that information is available so easily there is little point teaching kids to memorise stuff, what they need are tools to sort through all the information.

However, who decides what is bullshit? The questioning needs to be deeper than is indicated here. They need to learn to detect vested interests. There are times when anecdotal evidence is more reliable than big data, depending on who is presenting the information. Evidence based medicine isn't immune to problems.
 

Glycon

World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet
Messages
299
Location
ON, Canada
Damn, reminds me of something like the Hitler youth, reporting their own parents for being deviants.

First thing that popped into my mind was:

CryptoKids.png
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
Great! So now are kids can take a trip over to SBM and come back and tell us that chronic Lyme doesn't exist, our chemical and electrical sensitivities are all in our heads, only a drug can cure a disease, and we should take an SSRI and give CBT a try.