" Researchers identify new spectrum disorder called ALPIM syndrome.." They are including CFS

[duncan]

"Identify" could have been challenged, I think. "Identify" can suggest a pre-existing condition that a group uncovers. I'm not sure that has been proven here. It can mean other things, yes, but this potential equivocation is not something that should be encouraged in Science.

"Establish" or "create" or "conjecture about" might be more accurate.

I have a low threshold of tolerance for researchers and ambiguity.

 

[Kyla]

Here's the abstract of the actual article:

. The authors describe a spectrum disorder comprising a core anxiety (A) disorder and four domains: joint laxity (L), chronic pain syndromes (P), immune disorders (I), and mood disorders (M)—dubbed the ALPIM syndrome. This study examined 76 consecutive outpatients with an anxiety disorder plus at least one somatic condition from three domains. More than 80% of the patients had panic attacks, fibromyalgia, and major depressive episodes. Associations were found between joint laxity and bipolar III, headache with bipolar II, and bipolar II with chronic fatigue syndrome. Significant relationships were demonstrated within and between domains, validating ALPIM as a syndrome.

 

[Kyla]

I am very curious how they selected these patients and what criteria they used for CFS.
EVERY Criteria for ME or CFS has an exclusion for Bipolar. Even Fukuda. Which makes this sort of baffling.

 

[adreno]

[QUOTE="Kyla, post: 618130, member: 18732]
EVERY Criteria for ME or CFS has an exclusion for Bipolar. Even Fukuda. Which makes this sort of baffling.[/QUOTE]
SEID doesn't. In any case, I can't see why you can't have both. Channelopathies has been suggested in both disorders.

 

[Marco]

@adreno

Thanks for the links but I still don't see how "processes compromising function in neuro-developmental conditions" might result in hypermobile joints unless they are suggesting that 'hypermobility' is a sensory aberration or perhaps neuromuscular which makes the joints feel 'floppier'? In other words do the joints have a greater range of movement than normal or not?

 

[Hutan]

Can't argue with that although I'm at a loss as to how anxiety and joint hypermobility syndrome (whatever that is?) may have a common genetic etiology. Do they make any suggestions?

Dr Chris O'Callaghan (Melbourne, Australia) suggests that people with hypermobility have stretchy tissues in general. Non-rigid blood vessels result in orthostatic intolerance. Orthostatic intolerance results in inadequate oxygen in the brain. Inadequate oxygen in the brain can increase adrenalin and increased adrenalin can result in anxiety.

http://emerge.org.au/mr-chris-ocall...re-connective-tissue-elasticity/#.VaOxcrqs5Cg

See from around the 20 minute mark and specifically from around the 25 minute mark.

 

[Kyla]

[QUOTE="Kyla, post: 618130, member: 18732]

SEID doesn't. In any case, I can't see why you can't have both. Channelopathies has been suggested in both disorders.

SEID didn't exist when this paper was written.

I'm not disputing that people can have more than one disease, but I find it very suspect that they would find such a high correlation with one that is specifically named as an exclusion. It gives me questions about the methodology.
The CCC allows any of the excluded conditions provided they have been previously diagnosed and adequately treated to the point it couldn't be causing any of the symptoms. The rest exclude it full stop.

 

[Kyla]

SEID doesn't. In any case, I can't see why you can't have both. Channelopathies has been suggested in both disorders.

SEID didn't exist when this paper was written.

I'm not disputing that people can have more than one disease, but I find it very suspect that they would find such a high correlation with one that is specifically named as an exclusion. It gives me questions about the methodology.
The CCC allows any of the excluded conditions provided they have been previously diagnosed and adequately treated to the point the y couldn't be causing any of the symptoms. The rest exclude it full stop.

... This is all speculation without access to the actual paper.
No one has access?

 

[Valentijn]

Orthostatic intolerance results in inadequate oxygen in the brain. Inadequate oxygen in the brain can increase adrenalin and increased adrenalin can result in anxiety.

Orthostatic intolerance also results in increased heart rate and feeling quite "uncomfortable" after standing too long, which usually happens out in public. Due to poor criteria, anxiety is often diagnosed on that basis even if the patient never feels anxious, or the "anxiety" is relieved by sitting down

Either way, it's sloppy diagnostics.

 

[msf]

Also known as IHJPTNOOMA Syndrome

 

[justy]

The study documented high prevalence of physical disorders among patients with panic disorder compared to the general population.
For example, joint laxity was observed in 59.3% of patients in the study compared with a prevalence of approximately 10% to 15% in the general population

Sorry haven't read whole thread - this may have been pointed out already.

'joint laxity' or 'benign joint hypermobility syndrome' is synonymous with EDSIII. People with EDS III often have co morbid POTS. undiagnosed POTS can feel like anxiety and lead to panic, especially if undiagnosed and untreated. They seem to have their information arse about face as we say in the UK.

 

[Marco]

Dr Chris O'Callaghan (Melbourne, Australia) suggests that people with hypermobility have stretchy tissues in general. Non-rigid blood vessels result in orthostatic intolerance.

Thanks. I've come across that idea before but I was wondering if there's objective evidence for these 'stretchy tissues'?

 

[jimells]

They seem to be suggesting that the supposed mood disorders are actually part of a physical illness.

Yes, a spoonful of sugar *does* make the medicine go down easier. Their first mistake is assuming that psychosomatic illness exists, a fact not in evidence. How can anything built on that foundation be taken seriously?

 

[jimells]

The authors describe a spectrum disorder comprising a core anxiety (A) disorder and four domains: joint laxity (L), chronic pain syndromes (P), immune disorders (I), and mood disorders (M)—dubbed the ALPIM syndrome. This study examined 76 consecutive outpatients with an anxiety disorder plus at least one somatic condition from three domains.

I don't understand this at all. How can an immune disorder have a "somatic condition"? Doesn't the immune disorder explain the patient's "immune disorder somatic condition"?

 

[Valentijn]

I don't understand this at all. How can an immune disorder have a "somatic condition"? Doesn't the immune disorder explain the patient's "immune disorder somatic condition"?

"Somatic" means physical. It's psychosomatic symptoms which are physical symptoms supposedly caused by a mental disorder.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Based on the brief abstract, I think their methodology sounds rather flawed - basically "patients at an anxiety clinic who also have a physical complaint, have both anxiety and a physical disorder." Which is pretty simplistic and redundant. So I really doubt they've managed to validate the existence of the proposed disorder, despite their confident claims in that regard.

That was my impression too.

 

[Aurator]

Like others, I take issue with the word "identify" in the article's title. It should read "Researchers invent new spectrum disorder...".
The research looks to be about as useful, in the larger scheme of things, as a PhD a university friend of mine told me he once supervised entitled "Writing Poetry Backwards".

 

[Hutan]

I've come across that idea before but I was wondering if there's objective evidence for these 'stretchy tissues'?

Good question Marco. I don't know. My son and I are seeing Dr O'Callaghan this month - I will ask what evidence he has that people with hypermobility also have blood vessels that are less rigid than average.

I'll be interested to see anything others can come up with.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Looks like a non-sequitur.

Eg. Statistical crud, therefore ALPIM syndrome exist. I don't buy this argument at all.

It is worthless to talk about spectrums, because it means that interventions will not be targeted and most likely be ineffective.

It is only worthwhile to talk about highly specific syndromes/illnesses so that interventions can be targeted to those whom are likely to be helped.

 

[alex3619]

It is only worthwhile to talk about highly specific syndromes/illnesses so that interventions can be targeted to those whom are likely to be helped.

In general I agree, but with the brain being involved I am not so sure. Hypothetically f the pattern of damage, from the same type of damage, were a little different, then the symptoms would be different too. Yet the diseases is the same, its the expression that varies.

To confound things further, its possible that different damage to a specific set of tissues might induce very similar symptoms.

In other words it will take very careful science to figure it out.