Request Assistance Brainstorming Root-cause of B-Vitamin Deficiencies

[CCC]

The only thing i have to add here is that you don't want to take more of anything than you actually need.

This is the key question: are you starting to feel a bit better as you replenish your B2?

For example, Freddd takes enormous amounts of methylfolate. We take much, much less. As the B2 kicked in, we also needed even less methylfolate because of something in the way the folate cycle and B metabolism works that I can't remember any more.

There is a thing about keeping everything balanced. B1 and B2 seem to have a special relationship here (not that kind). That said, my son doesn't seem to need much beyond the Jarrow B-right and food. My sister can't tolerate any extra B1 and neither can my son. I'm healthy, and I seem to need more B1 than anyone else in my family.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@CCC I thnk that some of the B1 intolerance can be credited to the fact it is a phase I inducer, requiring corresponding amounts of phase II induction. I always get a headache if I take B1 on its own (tiny doses).

 

[JasonUT]

As I was scouring Google I came across this article about SIBO, B-vitamins and small intestine flora health.

She states:

"Gut bacteria are able to synthesize/produce most B vitamins, such as folate, biotin, B12, thiamine, and niacin. Bifidobacterium sp. in particular seem to be good at synthesizing vitamins, with some strains being much better producers than others. Importantly, the synthesized vitamins aren’t just hanging out in the gut once they’re made. There are systems within the large intestine that allow our bodies to absorb and utilize these bacterially-produced vitamins."​

I am deficient in Folate (B9), Thiamine (B1), and Niacin (B3). I'd likely be deficient in B12, but I am taking large sublingual doses. Interestingly she states that two species, Bifidobacterium bifidum (B. bifidum) and Bifidobacterium infantis (B. infantis), are good at producing Folate, Thiamine, and Niacin.

She recommends Prescript-Assist, but I don't see either Bifidobacterium bifidum (B. bifidum) and Bifidobacterium infantis (B. infantis) in it. Also, Chris Kresser recommends Pre-Assist in this article.

Bifidobacterium bifidum (B. bifidum):
Bio-Kult, Jarrow Bifidus Balance, Seeking Health ProBiota Bifido, Douglas Labs Multi-15 billion

Bifidobacterium infantis (B. infantis):
Bio-Kult, VSL3, Align

 

[JasonUT]

The only thing i have to add here is that you don't want to take more of anything than you actually need.

This is the key question: are you starting to feel a bit better as you replenish your B2?

For example, Freddd takes enormous amounts of methylfolate. We take much, much less. As the B2 kicked in, we also needed even less methylfolate because of something in the way the folate cycle and B metabolism works that I can't remember any more.

There is a thing about keeping everything balanced. B1 and B2 seem to have a special relationship here (not that kind). That said, my son doesn't seem to need much beyond the Jarrow B-right and food. My sister can't tolerate any extra B1 and neither can my son. I'm healthy, and I seem to need more B1 than anyone else in my family.

Yes, B2 is helping. It seems to be making me calmer. What clues helped you decide you needed less mFolate?

Apparently, Lactobacillus fermentum is good at producing B2 [Source1, Source2].

 

[CCC]

Yes, B2 is helping. It seems to be making me calmer. What clues helped you decide you needed less mFolate?.

My son doesn't take folate on a schedule: he takes it when he feels like he needs it. At the moment, this is:

• a 5mg quatrafolic when he wakes up (every day)
• 800mg of folinic + 25mg of B2 throughout the day in response to symptoms (red, dry eyes are the main symptom, but there are a few others - all on Freddd's list)
• since starting Bartonella treatment: a top-up of 5mg quatrafolic if he feels like 800mg won't be enough
• 5mg quatrifolic at bedtime in a vain attempt to stock up overnight

He says he can feel the folinic doing more than the quatrifolic does, but sometimes he just needs the boost from the larger dose.

 

[CCC]

@CCC I thnk that some of the B1 intolerance can be credited to the fact it is a phase I inducer, requiring corresponding amounts of phase II induction. I always get a headache if I take B1 on its own (tiny doses).

I've never had to think about this before: phase I and II are the detox phases in the liver?

We've started milk thistle (with Bartonella treatment) and it seems to really drive a demand for folate some days. B1 did exactly the same thing, so my son has only what is in that jarrow B-right, and only 1 a day.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I've never had to think about this before: phase I and II are the detox phases in the liver?

exactly

B1 did exactly the same thing

The link in my sig "folate & thiamine" might interest you, esp this study (section "Other Nutritional Deficiencies")

 

[satori]

The OAT diagnoses B vitamin deficiencies by looking at the levels of your OA. The interpretation suggests, but does not prove, that you are deficient in B vitamins. I have gotten these in my OATs over the years and took various B vitamins at various levels to no avail. There is more to the levels of various OAs than suggested by the reference guides and ultimately the interpretation is complex. Hopefully, this works out for you, but it may be something entirely different.

 

[JasonUT]

The OAT diagnoses B vitamin deficiencies by looking at the levels of your OA. The interpretation suggests, but does not prove, that you are deficient in B vitamins. I have gotten these in my OATs over the years and took various B vitamins at various levels to no avail. There is more to the levels of various OAs than suggested by the reference guides and ultimately the interpretation is complex. Hopefully, this works out for you, but it may be something entirely different.

Understood. I felt more confident in the results when I saw consistent B-Vitamin deficiencies in both the OAT and SpectraCell Nutrient Panel.

B1, B3, B6, B9 were deficient per SpectraCell Micro Nutrient
B1, B2, B3, B6, B9 were deficient per OAT

I hope this works out for me too. My nutritionist seems confident in the SpectraCell results. He looks for trends in the OAT. The OAT is definitely more complex to interpret.

 

[JasonUT]

Summary of Co-enzyme Sublingual B-Complex Options:
Supplement Health Store - Coenzymated B Formula
Source Naturals - Coenzymate™ B Complex
Super Smart - Coenzymated B Formula

Note that Source Naturals Option contains Folic Acid.

 

[JasonUT]

You could try this product, which I've been using for years now.
http://www.supersmart.com/en--Vitamins--Coenzymated-B-Formula--0540

It's sublingual, doesn't taste very good but it works wonders. I take 1/2 lozenge every day or (every other day) and it's absorbed very well.

I have lots of digestive issues and low stomach acid so oral vitamins, especially the Bs don't work too much for me.

Good luck

p.s. = edited to fix the link (was in French)

Hello PeterPositive,

How does the Super Smart compare to the Source Natruals Coenzymatic Sublingual? I noticed that in this post #5 you switched because of the the Folic Acid in the Source Naturals. Symptomatically, did you notice a difference between the two? How did you discovery that Folic Acid was causing problems for you?

Thanks,
jasonut

 

[JasonUT]

I would think about two things maybe.

Is there something draining these nutrients, ie some sort of toxin, biotoxin, inflammation, etc.. that has yet to be addressed.

Or is there some sort of transport issue, reason these things at high doses are just not making it into the cell? Maybe a cofactor, genetic transport issue or cell membrane issue.

@zelda

Good suggestions. I have already been tested for mold, an unchallenged metal, challenged metal, and 24-hour urine metal test. All came back negative.

New methylation doc recommended GPL-TOX and GLYPHOSATE urine test from Great Plains Laboratory. It appears both tests focus on chemical toxins. He also mentioned transport issues much like you and my nutritionist mentioned. As a result, he prescribed injections 3x per week which include mB12, hB12, B6 and B9. I will continue to use sublingual B-complex daily with the injections.

What other toxic tests should I consider?

 

[zelda]

What other toxic tests should I consider?

Sounds like you have done a lot. Have you ever done a hair test and looked for the "mineral derangement" or "counting rules" that Cutler talks about? Do you have amalgams? Vaccinated? History of possible toxic exposure?

Not sure if injections can bypass transport issues caused by toxins or enzyme blockages. Maybe some sort of diffusion however could override things though. For example, it is my understanding that arsenic and tungsten can block SUOX, Mercury and lead can block MTR, etc.....

Hope you find some answers, something that sticks. In my experience there is only so much testing can help with though. Sometimes you just have to start experimenting, albeit cautiously.

One last thought is Phos Choline for cell membrane health. Necessary for membrane fluidity and health of the cell. Rigid sick cell walls can lead to transport issues. Probably couldn't hurt to try.

 

[JasonUT]

@zelda

Have you ever done a hair test and looked for the "mineral derangement" or "counting rules" that Cutler talks about?

No, I'll talk to my doc about this.

Do you have amalgams?

I don't have any.

Vaccinated?

Yes

History of possible toxic exposure?

Just standard use of household products. I have cut back considerably in the last 2 years and tried to use natural cleaning products.

One last thought is Phos Choline for cell membrane health. Necessary for membrane fluidity and health of the cell. Rigid sick cell walls can lead to transport issues. Probably couldn't hurt to try.

I take 15 grams of Lecithin per day. It's my understanding that Lecithin is a source of Choline. Plus my choline level was good on my SpectraCell Micronutrient test. Additionally, I take 3 fish oil pills per day.

I feel like I am checking all the correct boxes, but still have issues per latest nutrient testing.

 

[CCC]

@JasonUT how are you going these days?

 

[JasonUT]

@JasonUT how are you going these days?

It's been a mixed bag. Lipothiamine has been a big help with energy and cognitive function. As a result, I think we peeled back a few layers of the illness and exposed some new things to work on. A new round of nutrient and hormone tests are pending. Also, I have an appointment with Dysautonomia doc for tilt table test this week.

I hope to have some interesting news in the next couple weeks.