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REM Sleep

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by CreativeB, May 18, 2018.

  1. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    Hello everyone

    I'm just back from seeing a sleep specialist. I'd been sent for an in-depth sleep study and got the results back. The doctor has said I don't have a sleep disorder - definitely ruled out sleep apnoea.

    He did say that my REM sleep is off. I'm only showing one instance of REM sleep. He said that this is a symptom of something else - most likely CFS.

    I haven't been given any suggestions on how to deal with this so would appreciate any insight.
     
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  2. Shoshana

    Shoshana Northern USA

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    That is so interesting, @CreativeB
    Thank you for sharing about it.

    I am in a crash and cannot think of anything else to say at this moment.
    Will be interesting to see other responses.

    I sure could use some REM sleep. ;)
     
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  3. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    Thanks @Shoshana. Im sorry you're experiencing a crash right now. Hope you recover soon. I had to go to bed once I got home :eek:

    Take care @Shoshana :D
     
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  4. My good doc mentioned using 1-2 mg of sinequan (doxepin) to restore stage 4 sleep. (1-2mg is a very low dose.)

    I finally got diagnosed with sleep apnea, and treatment is helping, so I haven't needed it to try it.
     
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  5. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Administrator

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    @Shoshana - I hope you recover quickly.

    @CreativeB - Some medications can interfere with REM sleep.
     
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  6. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    @Diwi9 I'm not taking any medication but thanks for that

    Thanks @caledonia. I'll look into that- or would I need a prescription?
     
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  7. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    Just checked out the details online. I have high pressure in my eyes so idont think I could take it because of the risk of glaucoma :vomit:
     
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  8. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Administrator

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    I thought Stage 4 is slow wave sleep, not REM? If you are looking for slow wave sleep, gabapentin can increase it too.
     
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  9. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    I'm not sure. The specialist said REM stage
     
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  10. Yes, you would need a doc to prescribe it for you.
     
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  11. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    I'll be seeing my gp to discuss the results once she gets through.
     
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  12. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    Assuming that REM and dreams are associated then I was able to increase my REM sleep/dreams by adding 60mg of CoQ10 and a supplement called Sleep Thru to my usual melatonin at night. Before that, no matter which sleep supplements I tried, I rarely dreamed.
     
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  13. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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  14. Just wanted to make sure you're doing sleep hygiene regarding light and EMFs. These can disrupt melatonin production.

    So basically, get off all screens by 7 or 8 pm or so. That would be computers, phones, laptops, ipads, and possibly also television. Get rid of any "daylight" bulbs. All of these things emit blue light which tells your body to wake up. Your body expects amber light in the evening to feel sleepy and go to sleep. Don't have a cell phone or wifi in your bedroom.

    Block all sources of light in your bedroom such as street lights coming in through the window, alarm clock, little power lights from other electronic devices. A sleep mask can be helpful. It should be so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face.

    If noise bothers you, use ear plugs.

    Get some actual outside daylight in the morning. This is the time your body expects blue light. This helps reinforce the circadian cycle.

    You can go even further with EMF mitigation if you think it might help, such as turning off your wifi router at night, or stop using a the wifi portion of your router altogether and hook up devices with an ethernet cable, turning off the circuit breaker to your bedroom at night, etc.
     
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  15. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    @caledonia, thanks. Have a blue light filter turned on on my phone all the time. It helps reduce migraines. I don't have a computer etc in the bedroom and my phone is left in another room. I tried an eye mask but I keep taking it off, but I'll try again and persevere. I don't have an alarm at the side of my bed ... my phone does that ... forces me to get up - otherwise I can turn off the alarm in my sleep.

    I've also been taking magnesium baths
     
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  16. Magnesium baths are good.

    I have my alarm all the way across the room for the same reason. :)

    I've tried eye masks too, and didn't like the pressure on my face, plus they get dislodged. Instead, I use a t-shirt draped across my eyes. It's not perfect - I end up losing it sometimes and I have to reposition it whenever I turn over, but it's the best thing I've found so far.
     
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  17. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    I'm going to try a few different things to see if I can enter REM sleep, but how quickly should I see results? Is this something quick or will it take time?

    I'm sorry, I have s few questions and wonder if anyone has ideas.

    I've read that antihistamines and painkillers could also be causing the problem. I only usually take painkillers for bad migraines and I'm worried about my allergies if I stop the antihistamines

    I'm also thinking I should make changes one by one so I know what's working/Not working
     
  18. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    Hi. I Thought I should update. Improvements/changes to sleep hygiene didn't really make any difference ... well actually I just slept more and longer but still as tired. However on Friday I stopped taking my antihistamines and now I feel much better. My mind feels clearer, I'm more focused and can concentrate more. I have energy I didn't have before - even if I still get fatigued. I wouldn't have believed how much of a difference this has made.
     
  19. datadragon

    datadragon Guest

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    EMFs are a big one as they have the ability to disrupt your pineal gland’s production of melatonin and serotonin. So in addition to what caledonia said, make sure any cell phone, laptop are put into airplane mode as the wifi is still active usually even when turned off. Put them in airplane mode also when not using as they are also a significant contributor to mitochondrial damage and dysfunction, which is at the heart of virtually all chronic disease. If you have any smart tv, dvd/blu ray with apps, or video game systems put them on a switched outlet so you can turn the power off when not in use. Unplug the wifi router if possible at night. Replace wireless devices like mice and keyboards and printers with wired ones. These all deplete your magnesium for example which is usually a problem already for anyone with cfs.

    Raising the head of your bed 6 inches (15 cm) getting a slope of 5 degrees improves the glyphatic drainage of the brain during sleep, promotes blood circulation, metabolism, respiratory function, neurological and immune, relieving symptoms related to diabetes, Alzheimer's, sleep apnea and acid reflux https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2018/02/15/inclined-bed-therapy.aspx

    Gaba is known for its anti anxiety and relaxing properties. However, taking straight Gaba supplements usually is not very effective as it does not cross the blood brain barrier. L-Theanine on the other hand is a unique amino acid that upregulates GABA and should be effective for the purpose of producing calmness and reducing anxiety such as a racing mind that can keep you from going to bed. Clinical studies have shown that L Theanine reduces stress, improves the quality of sleep, diminishes the symptoms of PMS, heightens mental acuity, and reduces the negative side effects of caffeine. Typical dose is 200mg 1 or 2 times a day. It does not act as a sedative at this dose Racing mind is usually a symptom of high copper to lower zinc levels.

    What the body needs to make melatonin for sleep:
    https://understand-andcure-anxietya...pression.com/images/MelatoninCopperBlocks.jpg

    5-HTP increases serotonin also in addition to melatonin. 5-HTP increases REM sleep by about 25%, while increasing deep sleep stages 3 and 4 without lengthening total sleep time. The sleep stages that are reduced to compensate for the increases are non-REM stages 1 and 2, the less important stages. the recommended dosage is 50–150 mg, 30–45 minutes before sleep. 5-HTP converts to serotonin with Zinc, Magnesium, Vitamin C (use whole not ascorbic acid), and Vitamin B6 (P5P is the active form) (Tryptophan Hydroxylase - an enzyme) then B5 and SamE to Melatonin. If 5-HTP doesnt work then use Melatonin 2-3mg short term as you figure out what your lacking of Zinc (check plasma not serum), Magnesium, B1, B5, B6. Stomach Acid is usually low and can use Betaine HCL at all meals which will break down protein properly to get the nutrients.

    You could then try L-Tryptophan instead a bit to see if you get similar benefits. L-Tryptophan is converted to 5-HTP as needed using the cofactors Folate, Iron, Calcium, B3, Magnesium, B6 (P5P) and is much safer to use in the long term. Its possible to build up too much serotonin in the blood before it goes to the brain with 5-HTP over time but not L-Tryptophan. Some people need a special form of Folate and just because you supplement something doesnt mean you are getting the right form or its absorbing properly sometimes due to low stomach acid.

    If that works, try to just Eat more protein, take Betaine HCL to break it down at meals, and check Zinc Plasma (not serum), B1, B6.

    Higher copper then Zinc lowers all the things with an X. A zinc plasma (not serum) and serum copper will tell you whats going on right now at the moment of the test. High copper over zinc is the cause of racing mind and some insomnia and OCD as well keeping you from sleep.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  20. CreativeB

    CreativeB Senior Member

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    Thank you @datadragon. That's a lot to take in and think about. :thumbsup:

    I'll need to see where I can get these supplements from. My phone doesn't connect to WiFi - or rather I don't use WiFi and I turn my tablet off at night and devices are in another part of the house at night.

    Im going to try and get an appointment with my gp tomorrow to discuss the results if I can
     
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