Reduced diversity and altered composition of the gut microbiome in individuals with ME/CFS

[msf]

Do you mean that you feel more lactate in your muscles after eating some sort of foods?

Yes, but I usually seem to notice it the day after, having not slept well that night, so perhaps the clearance from the muscles is also affected by the sleep disruption.

 

[msf]

Going back to that bacteriotherapy study, it was quite a large one, and they didn´t report any cases of sepsis. Of course, they didn´t report any adverse advents at all, but you would have hoped that sepsis would get a mention.

 

[Mij]

http://www.microbiomeinstitute.org/...atient-undergoing-fecal-microbiota-transplant

"Six hours after the FMT, the woman developed sepsis-like syndrome and had a fever, tachycardia, and hypotension. After the woman was transferred to ICU, it was decided that no further antibiotics would be initiated as this could prevent the FMT from being effective and she did not clinically appear to be severely ill despite her vitals. The following morning she was recovering and her vital signs normalized. Three days later, she was discharged and six weeks later, her stool frequency had reduced to 2-3 times per day and there was no C. diff recurrence."

 

[roller]

Yes, but I usually seem to notice it the day after, having not slept well that night, so perhaps the clearance from the muscles is also affected by the sleep disruption.

yes, because food changes the mouth microbiome.
and assuming the skin microbiome has a direct impact on the gut microbiome, then the mouth microbiome has too.
im not sure, but i think having read the microbiome in the mouth is the most diverse of them all...

 

[JaimeS]

I wish there was more clarity on what specific organisms are missing or low. Are any of these ones we can buy as a probiotic supplement?

Do check out the stuff I cited above. De Meirlier's is super-specific about which are low, and it's in two different patient populations.

-J

 

[JaimeS]

NO PROBIOTICS only a small amount of organic soy KEFIR t

But Kefir is fermented, and therefore contains probiotic cultures. Am I thinking of something else?

 

[msf]

yes, because food changes the mouth microbiome.
and assuming the skin microbiome has a direct impact on the gut microbiome, then the mouth microbiome has too.
im not sure, but i think having read the microbiome in the mouth is the most diverse of them all...

Nope, it´s definitely happening in the gut for me! And it isn´t due to a sudden change in microbiome, if that is even possible, but rather due to the foods being hard to digest/exacerbating leaky gut.

 

[msf]

http://www.microbiomeinstitute.org/...atient-undergoing-fecal-microbiota-transplant

"Six hours after the FMT, the woman developed sepsis-like syndrome and had a fever, tachycardia, and hypotension. After the woman was transferred to ICU, it was decided that no further antibiotics would be initiated as this could prevent the FMT from being effective and she did not clinically appear to be severely ill despite her vitals. The following morning she was recovering and her vital signs normalized. Three days later, she was discharged and six weeks later, her stool frequency had reduced to 2-3 times per day and there was no C. diff recurrence."

´Finally, her husband was identified as a potential stool donor and on Day 15 she underwent an FMT.´

How romantic! He saved her life!

More seriously, I thought Bob was referring to a ME patient who developed sepsis after an FMT.

 

[Horizon]

Do check out the stuff I cited above. De Meirlier's is super-specific about which are low, and it's in two different patient populations.

-J

It seems to be the classes of organisms as opposed to the particular probiotic strains commercially available that we can try. Unless I missed something?

 

[JaimeS]

It seems to be the classes of organisms as opposed to the particular probiotic strains commercially available that we can try. Unless I missed something?

It's definitely more specific re: particular genera, but that doesn't mean anyone has a commercial supplement that matches what tends to be deficient. You'd have to look at the original article.

J

 

[bertiedog]

But Kefir is fermented, and therefore contains probiotic cultures. Am I thinking of something else?

No you are absolutely right. I meant I haven't been taking any added probiotics for several months now and my gut is hugely improving but I do still have a small amount of homemade Soya/Coconut Kefir after breakfast and also mixed into some organic berries after my evening meal. (Not large quantities of either).

Pam

 

[TigerLilea]

CFS/ME expert, Dr. De Meirleir, has found temporary positive effects of fecal transplants on CFS/ME patients. But he believes the transplants are not treating the core pathology and that bad flora regrows in patients over time.

I read somewhere last month that fecal transplants are more successful for c diff and not so much for other problems. The article suggested that better results were found swallowing the fecal matter via pill form.

 

[TigerLilea]

and @those, saying tetracyclines caused their cfs...
didnt you take them due to diseases/infection in the first place?
how can you rule out that this infection hasnt caused cfs ?

I'll go to my grave saying - in fact knowing - that Penicillin caused my CFS. The fatigue has stayed fairly consistent these past 25 years until March of this year when I was put on Amoxicillin and my CFS went from mild to severe. I have been treated for numerous sinus and bladder infections over the past 25 years with various antibiotics not in the Penicillin family and have never had any problems with them affecting my CFS. Each time I was put on the Penicillin/Amoxicillin I felt great within about three days after starting them and the initial infection was cleared from my body. It is later while still taking the med that the fatigue started or got worse. If it was just the infection that was the problem then I should have gotten progressively worse over the years - not 25 years later.

 

[msf]

How do you know you didn´t get ME because the Pencilin didn´t kill the bug it was supposed to treat? Because you got better? You know that they say you shouldn´t stop taking antibiotics when you start to feel better, don´t you? That´s because you may not have got rid of the infection yet. I do not think the fact that you didn´t get progressively worse is proof that you cleared the infection either - it is quite possible that the bug and your immune system came to a kind of homeostasis.

 

[msf]

By the way, both of those features (starting to feel better after an early course of antibiotics, and not getting steadily worse) were present in my illness, and I am still IgA positive for the triggering organism, Yersinia, three years later.

 

[TigerLilea]

How do you know you didn´t get ME because the Pencilin didn´t kill the bug it was supposed to treat? Because you got better? You know that they say you shouldn´t stop taking antibiotics when you start to feel better, don´t you? That´s because you may not have got rid of the infection yet. I do not think the fact that you didn´t get progressively worse is proof that you cleared the infection either - it is quite possible that the bug and your immune system came to a kind of homeostasis.

I never said that I stopped taking the antibiotics once I started feeling better. I took the complete course of Penicillin. I feel fairly confident that the antibiotics cleared the infection as the cold I had had for six months finally went away within three days and so did the run down feeling.

 

[TigerLilea]

By the way, both of those features (starting to feel better after an early course of antibiotics, and not getting steadily worse) were present in my illness, and I am still IgA positive for the triggering organism, Yersinia, three years later.

Subsequent blood tests have not shown any sign of a lingering infection so I feel confident that the Penicillin did its job.

 

[msf]

I never said that I stopped taking the antibiotics once I started feeling better. I took the complete course of Penicillin. I feel fairly confident that the antibiotics cleared the infection as the cold I had had for six months finally went away within three days and so did the run down feeling.

That wasn´t the point I was trying to make, I was trying to point out that feeling better does not necessarily meant that the infection has been cleared.

 

[msf]

Subsequent blood tests have not shown any sign of a lingering infection so I feel confident that the Penicillin did its job.

Which infections did they test you for? Was the Penicillin prescribed for a known infection?

 

[TigerLilea]

Which infections did they test you for? Was the Penicillin prescribed for a known infection?

At the time they were trying to figure out why I had a cold for six months that wouldn't go away. The Pencillin was prescribed after it was discovered that I had a tooth infection.