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Rash/Lesion Start Up From Methylation Protocols

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by LaurieL, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    Rich VanK


    I was wondering, the nutrgenomic testing recommended by Dr. Amy Yasko, would her testing include for those polymorphisms such as the DAO and company? Or is her testing directly related to methylation polymorphisms?

    I would like to understand the scope of her testing methods a little bit better. Anyone know of some directional links in which I could glean more info as well?

  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Hi, Laurie.

    Dr. Amy's nutrigenomic panel includes polymorphisms in enzymes and other proteins associated with the methylation cycle and related pathways. DAO is not included. You can see the ones tested in the data that Mindy posted a few days ago from analysis that she and Ward Karns have done. Most of the data are from Dr. Amy's panel, posted voluntarily by people in the Yahoo cfs_yasko group:

  3. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

    I'm having a rash or flushing or something that seems to be linked to taking the methylb12. I've been taking Adb12, B-Right, Folapro and Methylb12 for a while now and been feeling better, without any adverse reactions. Last wk I put a Adb12 and Methylb12 together under my tongue for the first time (I always took them separately before) and within 15 mins I broke out in an ITCHY rash that had redness and burning. It affected mainly my arms and knees and felt like my skin was on fire. I thought maybe the two had a poor reaction when taken together, but tonight I took a 1/4 Methylb12 tab (first time since the last reaction) and had the same reaction again. Thankfully the itchiness went away within a 1/2 hour, but the burning/tingly skin lasts longer.

    Does this sound similar to your experience Laurie? I wasn't having any issues, so could this be a sign that something is starting to 'work'. I don't want to continue to have this reaction though. I'm concerned it could be long lasting. My mother has severe leaky gut and I told her she should take glutamine and a probiotic, she broke out in a similar itchy rash on her elbows, and months later (long after stopping the pills) she still has the itchiness at times.
  4. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    I had associated my prior use of hydroxy B12 to the rash before starting the methylation protocol. I guess I didn't consider or it wasn't suggested to me that the methyl B could be responsible.

    I just posted on the DMG thread, but I recently, after starting DMG, had to go on antibiotics due my body all of the sudden recognizing and fighting an infection I knew existed, but had been unsuccessful in finding it much less treating it prior to DMG.

    I know with those antibiotics, Azithromycin, my rash is only now just starting to turn the corner and heal.

    I don't know about anyone elses experiences concerning the adB12, methylB12, and methylfolates, but I have noticed an increasing improvement in my leaky gut. Of which the rash could also be a result of. Antibiotics seemed to help it this time, so.....

    I swear, atleast prior to the azithromycin, that my leaky gut and other intestinal issues were improving.

    It has been an amazing experience for me, this methylation. I seem to be graduating into new territory, as my body is responding in ways it has not for quite sometime.
    And also responding to things I have done in the past, which then lacked the response I am getting now.

    You mention glutamine, leaky gut and probiotics, and itchy elbows in your mother. I know glutamine is recommended for leaky gut issues, but I didn't respond well to it. I have found nothing giving the improvements to my own leaky gut and other gut issues, except the methylation protocol. It seems like it allows a response to what I use for these issues, where as prior, although helpful, these things still lacked the oomph I seem to be having success with currently.

    Probiotic use scares me with leaky gut personally. I have read a lot on bacterial translocation, I wasn't personally comfortable with supplying fresh supplies of intestinal bacteria just to cross my permeable gut. I had read they can be a lifesaver or downhill ride, depending on the circumstance. I also don't know what imbalance of intestinal bacteria I have, although I suspect one overabundance to be strep. I have yet to find a general recommendation here concerning probiotics and also being in my budget. Don't get me wrong, I do other things to help the fauna, including eating foods to be associated with prebiotics, but don't take a targeted probiotic as of yet.

    Interesting about the itchy elbows. In my own experience with leaky gut, I noticed an association of itching et all when I ate gluten. It seems many sufferers with leaky gut, have antigliadin antibodies, and itchy elbows are one of the big signs of this. Perhaps something to consider. Although, that response seems to be changing as well. Not entirely sure what it means or how to interpret it.

  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Hi Laurie,

    I've had a repeat of something I hadn't seen since my initial startup responses. With the acne type rash I get when I get broken down mb12 and more slowly going into mfolate deficiency which is usually confined totally within areas under hair; scalp, eyebrows and beard areas, I have just in the past two weeks and altered my mb12 methodology. I picked up increased improvement in my feet and hands for the first time in a long time. In these hair covered areas (I don't shave every day as that irritates my skin) the skin turned red and sort of swelled up, then peeled off leaving most excellent smooth new skin in formerly bumpy areas. It's almost like the layer involved in the acne type lesions was lifted up after turning red and sloughed off. This happened at the same time as the skin around my nails and finger tips improved. Hmmmm.
  6. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    Light bulbs starting to go on!!


    Are you going to be around on monday? I sure would like to post with you back and forth.

  7. kerrilyn

    kerrilyn Senior Member

    I took Glutamine, Betaine HCL and Lactoferrin before I really started the methylation protocols and they seemed to help me. Didn't seem to bother me a great deal at least, but honestly I'm not very observant to always recognize that A is causing B, unless it's a blatant reaction. I keep forgetting to take the Lactoferrin now, but I think I should keep it up.

    My mother and I are similar in some ways, but not others. I think she has far worse Leaky Gut, with a wide range of food intolerances. Her mouth will break open in sores if she eats certain foods. I suspect gluten is a problem for both of us though. I likely have food intolerances but not to the same degree and I just don't know which ones are the definitive culprits. I have MCS and environmental chemicals cause obvious reactions in me, rather than food. I feel bad that I told her to take Glutamine and probiotics and she had such a reaction to them. I suspect that her side of the family has some hereditary methylation or at least B12 deficiency issues.

    I too am feeling better since I started the methylation protocol, better than I have felt in years!
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    I will generally be around Monday something like 11am-3pm MST (EST-2). If you make a post, my email gets notified and I usually notice pretty quickly. Now if there is a snow storm I could be out blowing snow but normally I'll be at the computer at that period and various other times during the day.
  9. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    I don't know where to start, I feel a bit overwhelmed. Freddd,you posted a symptom list on wrongdiagnosis and I think I will start there. I know once I get to talking about it, I will find a direction. Bear with me, I am on information overload. You said by the symptoms one presents with, it could help you with direction in surmissing the possible problem. That is what I need help with. Direction and details.

    I went through your list and bolded what was pertinent to my own symptoms. Any comments further explaining are italiced under the bold highlighting.

    Version 1.0, 07/13/09

    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    For me, sensitivity occurs more with cold.
    sore burning tongue
    This was some years ago when my problems with health started.
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    It was fire engine red and seemed enlarged in the beginning. Now it is a purple color more than red, and I have chronic candidiasis I can't get rid of for the life of me.
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    In the beginning, but not currently.
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    Again, only to cold.
    canker sores
    I can't say I have never had them, but they have been thankfully few in a lifetime.
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    In the beginning, not currently. Guess I should define my meaning for current. Meaning no more than a year out.
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    In the beginning, not currently
    burning muscle pain
    Very mild currently, in the past, was devastating.
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    I used to be a runner and swimmer. There was a time in the past, when I began going through the three day post burn, and then it would go away.
    sore muscles
    Minimal currently. Not anything like it was in the past.
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    I didn't have a problem with recovery or muscles, until all of the sudden, this period was about six years ago. I don't train at all these days, and exercising, considering my reactions and lack of recovery is not something I have tested recently. I would like to start running again, but I didn't want to do things to early. And considering the events of this past week, I believe it is still too early to test my reactions. I work on my feet for many hours. I am fine with that. But as far as anaerobic exercise or the weight training I used to do, nada.
    exercise does not build muscle
    I did up until a certain point. My legs were svelte. Try as I might, I could only achieve a four and a half pack. And I never could get my shoulders and back to show the muscles. I should have had a lot more musculature for what I was doing.
    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    In the beginning, I had a very sore neck with enlarged lymph nodes on the side and along the spine. It was never bad enough to change the curvature of my neck. I also had a mid back pain, muscular in nature, where I could no longer maintain a sitting position, and would have to lie down to stop the pain. Nothing of the sort currently.exercise deblitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    Like I tried to describe earlier, there was a period about six years ago when all of this hit me. At that time, I wouldn't be able to recover for more than a week at times, and my health deteriorated exponentially during this time frame.
    painfully tight muscles, especially legs and/or arms
    So after that time period, I stopped all my running and training. Even after quitting, the pain and tightness did not relent until starting the methylation protocol in October.
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    Not everywhere or anywhere. Specific and repetitive. Hiccups being one of those spasms. My eyes would also twitch, and in the beginning, this occured daily, and multiple times daily. I have had very few, I can't say non existent, but very few twitches originating from my upper arms, back, etc. I most definately developed Restless Legs. Magnesium chloride has been most helpful in relieving these occurences, and I currently do not suffer these symptoms.
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Only in the beginning, that six years ago period.
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS
    Yes in the beginning, no currently.
    dyspepsia - sick stomach, nausea, regurgitation, vomiting, bloating, not emptying

    Intermittent currently
    altered bowel habits
    Awful diarhhea and steathorrea that kicked off my episode six years ago.
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 contining foods, nutrient specific anorexia
    Actually, the opposite occured with me. I craved meat, eggs, and diary. I absolutely craved them. Unlike anything ever before. I have never been a vegetarian. I am a mid western girl. Weve got some of the best beef around.
    intermittent constipation
    Only after starting the methylation recommendations. Is intermittent. Seems to correlate with DMG supplementation, of which only lasted a couple of weeks and is now gone. Noticing transit time has slowed considerably. There was a point in time, where I could had 10-20 bm's a day. Seemed like a girl couldn't ever get off the toilet. :D
    intermittant diarrhea
    In the beginning, there was nothing intermittent about it. Ugh.
    irritable bowel syndrome
    Crohns disease (direction of causality if any not established)
    Celiac disease (direction of causality if any not established) - gluten sensitivity
    Only correlation to diet. After the DMG/perilla/quecertin mix, that sensitivity doesn't seem as acute.
    Dairy sensitivity
    Only in large quantities.
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    There was a time, but not currently.
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    Definatley not.
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations - "gloved" loss of sensation
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to become aroused
    reduced testosterone

    erectile disfunction
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    Zero sperm count

    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis
    False positive pap smears, noncancerous cellular changes
    Interestingly enough, those abnormal paps started occuring around the six year mark I have mentioned often. Prior to that period, not one abnormal. After, all abnormal.
    menstrual symptoms
    God awful thorughout entire life in which the pill made thousands of times worse. Talk about Sybil. Yeesh. Responded well to progesterone shots.
    Frequent miscarriage
    child with neuro tube defects
    See above
    Until I was in my thirties, yes I was a pasty white. Then all of the sudden, I was able to tan darker than most around me. I now realize this is the abnormal bronzing associated with some metabolic disorders, although the detail escapes me as of yet.rapid heart rate
    Intermittent, some correlated with known infections, others were unexplained.
    heart arythymias
    My heart seems to throw PVC's and painful ones at that. Its either pVC's or spasms.
    Only remediatable with vagal response. Carnitine, magnesium, and potassium seem to help.

    shortness of breath
    Very few episodes, although again, the six year mark, I seemd to develop pleurisy like symptoms. I treated with herbals of which it resolved. Had another bought with it a year later, in which Rifampin/Isoniazid among others in combo. Have never had a problem since.
    heart palpitations
    weak pulse
    congestive heart failure
    Widespread pain throughout body
    Hypothyroid (direction of causality if any not established)
    13 YA I developed an unknown thyroiditis and a few years after that went through Hashimoto's like symptoms. Have not had a problem currently.
    High homocysteine
    High urinary MMA

    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Again around that six year mark.

    Throughout life, and unexplainable, and unavoidable.
    Intermittent, not so much currently.
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    I think I mentioned Sybil? Its been amazing, but with the start of methylation, I am definately improving overall.
    chronic malaise
    At one point, I would of categorized it as debilitating.
    poor concentration
    Rollercoaster like, and could occur in an incredibly short time span. My mother used to call it the light switch.
    mood swings
    memory loss
    There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to my memory loss. It is both short term and long term. At one time in my life, my colleages nicknamed me the "walking encyclopedia". I had photographic memory skills. Then that six year mark happened along.
    impaired connection to others
    Does not occur now.
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    I had run out of ad b12 last week. I went three days without it. That was an eye opening experience. I most definately need that type of B12.
    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychosis seen in literature, megoblastic madness
    Not so much currently as in the past.
    Like seeing moving things out of the corners of your eyes? Light flashes, like lightning? No, don't believe they were TIA's. Flashes do not occur anymore.
    strange "smells" that are not present like linen being ironed, burnt odors or tidal flats etc
    Oh my gosh yes. People used to tell me it was my nose cause they couldn't smell anything.
    strange "sounds" that are not present, rustlings, mummurings, detonations etc
    Detonations again around that six year mark. I also heard radio.
    deja vu experiences
    Used to happen all the time, but not so much currently. my mother used to say, Dejavu's were a way a telling you were on track with where you were supposed to be. She had them too.
    anxiety or tension
    Typical type A, not so much anymore. Life altering health kinda chnages ones perspective on all the small stuff.
    At times, like a june bug.
    impaired executive function
    cognitive impairment
    memory impairment
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    This one was incredible to me. Even a massage was a god awful experience. There was a time in my life where i wouldn't allow anyone to touch my legs.
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Like a bloodhound.
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to chemicals
    Throughout life. At that six year mark, exponential increase, and debilitating, especially when exposed to fertilizers, pesticides, or exhaust. Very much imporved currently.
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symtoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    In the winter I am too cold, in the summer too hot.
    Hypersensitivity to foods
    Noticed a correlation to gluten when just starting the methylation recommendations. Have had minor reactions to milk. Nothing with eggs.
    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatiguability
    Again, there was a time when all I could do was sleep. I remember sleeping for 21 hours straight, and then getting up for a couple of hours, and going back down for another 12.
    severe abnormal fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    spastic paralysis
    Not currently.

    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    lack of dreaming
    Night terrors
    Very few.
    Prolonged hypnogogic state transitioning to sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    This is tough for me, because I remember strawberries tasting so good when I was younger, but now they taste like tart water. There is no sweetness.
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    Again tough, because I don't eat many potato chips.
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it outin mid word
    Especially after waking or illness. Sound like a phone sex operator, so I have been told anyways. :D
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
    The ad B12 was the first I used in implementing the methylation suggestions. One of the first things that blew me away was the colors and brightness at night. Instead of being monochrome, in which I hadn't really noticed, just associated it with a dimness of lack of clarity, the colors of things popped out at me at night. The stop lights were almost blinding to me.
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    I consider myself fortunate, especially in light of what I have learned recently. i have never had to wear glasses, and the loss in my vision instead of being 20/20, is 20/40.
    optic atrophy
    optic neuritis
    optic neuropathy
    centrocecal scotomata
    My mother has these types of problems.
    intolerance to bright light
    Still currently, although not quite as severe as in the past.
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    unclear hearing, garbled
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    inability to pick out one voice amongst many
    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    neural tube defect not caused by folate deficiency or child with it
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    subacute combined degeneration
    axonial degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark

    Not currently
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    neuropathies, many types
    progressive bilateral neuropathies
    demyelination of nerves - white spots on nerves on MRIs
    loss of detail and sensual aspects of touch all over body
    paresthesias in both feet - burning, tingling,cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc
    paresthesias in both legs - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hair, pain, numbness, etc
    paresthesias in both hands - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc
    paresthesias in both arms - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc

    Loss of position sense is the most common abnormality (or vibration sense)
    Loss of vibration sense is the most common abnormality (or position sense)
    Just prior to beginning the methylation suggestions, I was just beginning to experience these symptoms. None currently.
    Loss of sense of joint position
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    urinary incontenance - occasionally to frequently
    fecal incontinance - occasionally to frequently
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    Not many incidents, although I cannot claim unexistent.
    standing with eyes closed, a slight nudge or bump causes loss of balance
    Also loss of balance, couldn't stand on one foot if my life depended on it. That still occurs currently, although now, it seems to be intermittent.
    most patients have signs of both spinal cord and peripheral nerve involvement

    The effect on reflexes is quite variable
    Motor impairment may range from only mild clumsiness to a spastic paraplegia
    slowed nerve impulses
    Opposite, mine were over reactive.
    decreased reflexes
    difficulty swallowing
    Not currently
    brisk reflexes
    Throughout life.
    decreased deep tendon reflex
    toes turn up instead of down in reflex to sole stimulation
    I thought it was normal. :D
    Positive bilateral Babinski reflex
    Foot Drop
    If you mean that when you are walking, and you trip over your own toes and upper foot because all of the sudden it won't work, yes. Not so much after methylation began.
    impaired white blood cell response
    I suspect due to suspectability to infections.
    poor resistance to infections
    Throughout life and currently.
    easy bruising
    Still currently.
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    I suspect this heavily.
    decreased blood clotting
    Yes, a cut will just keep on bleeding.
    low hematocrit
    Actually, mine was abnormally high from test results near that six year period mark. I have nothing current.
    MCV > 92-94 first warning, MCV > 97-100 alert
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet dysfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hypersegmented neutrophils
    migraine headache cycles
    The kind that could make you throw up but you couldn't because it would simply just hurt too much. Like someone pulling on the backs of your eyeballs. When I was younger, I would only get this in my right eye. Then they began to occur in both eyes, but rarely at the same time. Not so much currently.
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs, bladder
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries, etc
    high CRP without infection
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles
    Seborrheic dermatitis

    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    My son and I both, get yellow hands or feet or both. Intermittent.
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    splits/sores at corners of mouth
    Hyperhidrosis - excessive sweating
    I didn't thoughout my life until this six year mark happened.
    Bariatric surgery
    glutathione, glutathione producing supplements such as NAC/glutamine
    I have taken NAC in the past.
    tegretol and some other medications
    Relatives, grandparant, parent, sibling, child, grandchild ever needing b12 shots or supplement
    brain atrophy with ileal tuberculosis preventing b12 absorbtion

    delayed myelination
    failure to thrive
    delayed speech
    frequent or continuous toncilitis
    frequent strep
    frequent pneumonia
    frequent longlasting supposed viral illnesses that linger and linger and linger
    everything goes to the lungs for extended periods
    Never been diagnosed with pnuemonia. It always went to my chest but did not linger for extended periods.
    growing pains
    I remember the bone pain, and my son went through it too.
    skin problems
    I had porcelain skin and was thankfully not plagued by teenage acne. Except for one occurence at the age of 13 in which lasted for four months and disappeared until my mid thirties.
    Never had allergies until my mid thirties, then went from nothing to everything all the time. Warranted a script for year round antihistamines.
    continuous swolen glands in neck
    low grade fever for years
    Prior to developing overt illness, I ran a low grade fever for two years. I also had erythema over my thymus on my chest for that time as well. Although pointed out to docs at the time, went undiagnosed.
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnogogic state transitioning to sleep
    Sleep paralysis

    Read more at b12 basics&ktrack=kcplink
  10. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    Then there are symptoms in which are not are on your list, but I wanted to include here.

    Body Hair
    I was born with completley white hair, in which then turned red, then brown, and now that shiny metallic gun metal gray or completley white, devoid of any pigment. Easily colored. :D

    I also have mismatching body hair. My arms are completley blonde and my eyelashes are very blond. They do not match the rest of me.

    Chronic Ear, Nose, and Throat Infections.

    Leaky Gut/Intestinal dysbiosis, and malabsorption.

    Chronic Moniliasis and Candidiasis.

    Chronic Blepharitis
    Massive amounts of goo, sand, and reddening of eyes.

    Abnormal freckling I call freackles. These are not normal freckles.

    Red macular spots on skin.

    Livedo Reticularis, of which has improved with methylation suggestions, but still exists on thighs.

    Problems with teeth and gums.

    Abnormally low cholesterol levels.

    Skin bronzing.

    Drooling when sleeping.

    I believe these are all associated with organic acidemias and would there for have some bearing on methylation. ???
  11. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    Then I thought I might add what supplements have had a profound affect on me. By profound, I mean in healing, and are definatley missed when absent. These are things in which I either added or deleted one at a time for sometime and observed changes. Some changes were more apparent more quickly.

    Ad B12

    Identifiable personality changes for the better
    Night vision color perception and clarity
    Improvement in eye bluriness
    Improvement in brain fog and memory issues

    Without ad B12, I experienced
    Identifiable personality change for the angrier.
    Reappearance of angular chelitis and oral thrush.
    Restart of monthly cycle ???
    When I started the methylation suggestions, my monthly cycles stopped. I was improving exponentially so I chalked it up to early menopause. I honestly didn't miss it a bit, and was quite dissappointed when it showed up again.
    I again, went through a debilitating fatigue.

    L-Carnitine and Potassium,

    Definately helped with heart palpitations that magnesium alone had not. I have had these spasms or palpitations since I was 10. They seem to manifest around my menses.

    Packed a whole bunch of wow. I can now stay awake throughout the day and function.

    Seems to help with hyperammonia, although I am not sure. Interestingly, I cannot take regular B6. I only seem to tolerate P-5-P.


    Skin, hair and nails. All over body function. This one I miss almost as badly as when I wasn't taking Ad b12.

    I had the hardest time with this and the ad b12 on start up.

    B1 and B2
    I seem to need higher doses of these two and B3 than what the B Right complex gives me.

    Cats Claw, Perilla, and PABA
    Cytokines, Histamine Complexes (IgA), and Mast Cell rxns.
  12. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    It was mentioned on another thread, that the cessation of methyl B12 could be felt in a few days, where as the cessation of ad B12 may be felt in a month. My experience seems to be the opposite. My reaction to running out of the ad B12 was near immediate and palpable. I did run low on my methyl B12, but that was only for about 30 hours and after my observations of the missing Ad B12. This would indicate to me...

    And funny thing about the last remnants of that rash I developed when starting the methylation suggestions. When I ran out of the ad B12, I had further healing of that rash. The last remnants of that initial rash finally cleared. So I had skin healing, but the rest of me went downhill. Could you help in making some sense of this?

  13. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

    acne from B12 is a sign of biotin deficiency. I need to take 10mg biotin to get rid of this, with 5mg I get some and without Biotin its really bad. I dont know why but one doc told me that biotin is needed to regenerate B12 and acne from B12 comes frome oxidized B12.

    does anyone react with bowel cramps from M-B12 (larger amount)??
  14. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    Thanks Joopiter. As a quick aside, I take 20 mg per day as it is now, and have for quite sometime. I was considering raising it another 10 to 30mg. This is not an acne type of reaction. Acne is easily gotten rid of, but this rash and lesions, it took quite sometime to heal.

    I found some information in a microbiology textbook I had concerning Methylmalonic aciduria and homocystinuria. Out of all the aciduria's, I have in the past without any formal knowledge, always suspected high homocystine levels.

    This passage may more accurately describe the rash I keep yelping about.

    "Cutaneous manifestations consistent with a diagnosis of acrodermatitis enteropathica was reported in two infants with Cbl C disease. Lesions were erythematous, superficially erosive (mine are not only superficial but can also go quite deep), desquamative, and hyperkeratotic. There was associated cheilosis and perioral erosions. Lesions of this type have been attributed to nutritional deficiency in many inborn errors under treatment, but these patients presented with skin lesions at nine days and 19 days, before nutritionally restrictive therapy had began. (Nutritional restrictive therapy was a reduction of protein.) On the other hand, both had very low levels of methionine in plasma and could represent a deficiency of an essential amino acid.

    Although obviously this was about infants presenting with this rash, I have since come to find out that although we may have inborn metabolism errors, MMA and homocytinuria can also be secondarily acquired. Due to my experience around the six years ago mark, I would say that even though my childhood history may represent a mild inborn error, something occured around that time that swayed the pendulum enough to cause overt symptoms to occur. I have also learned, that even with the mild inborn errors, it is typical that many will not present until the first through the fifth decades of life.

    After learning more about MMA Freddd, I now understand your references to your own case. Where as many may have defects in the synthesis of the cofactors, your particular case represents defects in the apoenzyme itself and the lipozomes. What I have also learned, is that all the MMA 's reflect a defective activity of methylmalonyl CoA mutase.

    About Biotin from Metametrix Laboratory Findings pages 188-190.

    For many years, students of nutrition were taught that there is no evidence of Biotin deficiency in adult humans. The discovery of biotin production by some organisms that inhabit the human gut added impetus to the attitude that, although biotin is clearly not made in human tissues, biotin deficiency was of little concern. It was thought that only certain disorders of infancy such a Leiner's disease and other forms of seborrheic dermatitis, are clinical manifestation of biotin deficiency. Recent findings are shifting the clinical outlook for biotin deficiency in adults.

    The biochemical function of biotin requiring enzymes is the insertion of carboxyl groups to allow modification of metabolic intermediates. In my own case, I have found the inability of Phase II to take place in the liver pathways. The catabolism of the amino acid leucine is a highflux process that offers a biochemical marker of biotin deficiency. The product formed after the first three steps of the pathway, B methylcrotonyl-CoA, requires a biotin -dependent carboxylation to allow the flow to continue. This compound accumulates if Biotin is deficient.

    Heritable disorders of biotin metabolism lead to the condition called multple carboxylase deficiency. Symptoms of biotin deficiency include alopecia, skin rash, Candida dermatitis, unusual odor to the urine, immune deficiencies, and muscle weakness. All of which I have.

    Bitoin deficiency can be caused by lack of biotin rich foods, or genetic variations in the enzymes. Antibiotic overuse can also contribute to Biotin deficiency by lowering the population of biotin-producing organisms and favoring the overgrowth of non-biotin producing species.

    My own history includes chemotherapuetic doses of antibiotics for 11 years. You can bet most of my flora was either destroyed and what has re-established is not balanced.

    Yes, 30 mg. At 6 mgs, this can address ataxia, convulsions, and alertness. At 20 mg's it can clear organic acidemias, and luekocyte carboxylase, and at 30 mgs, it has been shown to clear dermatitis of which at 25mg, a return of the dermatitis was shown.

    In addition to increased B-hydroxyisovalerate, elevations of lactate and alanine in urine and accumulations of odd chain fatty acids in plasma or red blood cell membranes have also been found in biotin deficiency.

  15. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

    WHAT? 30mg ??!! Do you feel a difference between 10 and 30 or is it just because of the acne?
  16. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

    Joopiter, one of my worse start up effects from mb12 has been stomach cramping and a rise in digestive trouble, like by alot! The higher levels I take, the worse I get. I had to back down a bit to a more tolerable level and I am just getting started. I've only been on the protocol now for less than two weeks.

    LaurieL, what and how bad were your start up effects to to folate and adb12? Thanks!
  17. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

    I absolutely feel a difference between 10 and 20mg. Only considering 30mg. And I absolutely feel a difference between the d-bitoin (laboratory made) and biotin.

  18. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member


    My start up effects to ad b12 was the induction of those mind blowing headaches I have described in previous posts. These are the kind of headaches in which a gun may be the preferred method of pain management. :D Just a describer, not an acutal. That kind of pain blotted out the rest of the effects I could have gone through, but couldn't function enough to identify at that point. It took nine days for that to subside. I didn't add the methylfolate until after the methyl B and only after the ad B12.

    The methylfolate concerned me which is why I didn't add it right away. I had already suspected a folic acid deficiency, and so my intent was to add it seperately and away from new additions so I could evaluate it on that level. I again got the headache, but not as intense as the Ad B12. It went away in a few short days, and most of my reactions were positive to methylfolate. Increased energy, lifting of brain fog, sense of well being.

    After starting the methyl B12, I went through a period of hot flahses kinda like niacin flushes. But there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to their occurence either. It didn't correlate with the times in which I was taking my supplements and the induction reaction time according to the digestion of those supplements. These occured throughout the day and night at random intervals for about a month and then suddenly stopped.

  19. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member


    Thanks for sharing you experience. Glad to hear that you are getting benefits from all this though. Did you build to full dosages of the mb12 before starting the adb12? Then the same with folate? I am still sensitive to supplements, so trying to proceed cautiously and in small increments. The b vitamins are the worse for me as far as start-up.

  20. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

    laurie: thanks, can you please explain the difference you feel and can you please tell me how I can see that it is Biotin or d-Biotin??

    Shellbell: in my experience A-B12 is tolerated better I would say its better to take a low dosage from all than taking large from some and nothing from the others. The detox effect of M-B12 may take up to 2 or 3 days maybe longer, so dont take too much. Im sure it would be good to take charcoal additionally.

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