International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day Is On May 12, 2018
Thomas Hennessy, Jr., selected May 12th to be our international awareness day back in 1992. He knew that May 12th had also been the birthday of Florence Nightingale. She was the English army nurse who helped to found the Red Cross as well as the first school of nursing in the world.
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Quote from Chris Armstrong video...

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by ljimbo423, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    This is a quote from the end of this video, where Chris Armstrong sums up his talk. The audio is hard to understand in places, so I made this quote.

    This video makes it pretty clear that he believes the core issue with CFS is dysbiosis and a leaky gut. Exhausting the body of the resources it needs to function properly, causing mitochondrial dysfunction and other symptoms.



    Jim
     
  2. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Thanks. I watched a few minutes of this (things are busy at the moment). Are there any other videos of him suggesting a treatment protocol ?
     
  3. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I think he recommended a keto diet at the symposium in August. I think he said the keto diet could help because the mito's are using amino acids for fuel instead of glucose, so higher protein lower carb would help.

    I don't know of any videos he has recommending a treatment protocol but I will keep an eye out and if I find one, I will post it. :)

    Jim
     
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  4. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Thanks, I'll look into that. I just actually tried a high protein/very low carb eating plan (and so low carb that I cut out potatoes and rice) and that had a negative effect on me, and in particular, my kidneys. My kidneys have always been slightly underpowered and flooding myself with protein really overworked them.

    In the end, my body was actually releasing cortisol to pull glucose from my muscles because it wasn't getting enough through carb.
     
  5. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I don't do very well on a keto diet either, it makes me very sick. I struggled off and on for about a year or so with it but could never get below about 80 gms of carbs a day, so no keto.:)

    Now I just get most of my carbs from non-starchy sources, like from the "specific carbohydrate diet". I do eat a small amount of white potatoes and rice now too.

    Jim
     
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  6. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    @ljimbo423 While I do buy into leaky guts, dysbiosis, translocation, etc. likely being a significant factor in many PWME's illnesses, and very much worth working on, it's not the magic bullet.

    When I was at my sickest, my stool test was "one of the best I've ever seen," according to my knowledgeable doctor. I'd been on an excellent gut regimen, with a high quality low carb organic diet, high quality probiotics, digestive enzymes, and liver support.

    Today, when I'm vastly improved, due to IVIG, which flares up my gut, and triple antibiotics for infections, my gut is in worse shape, though I'm constantly working on it.

    Unfortunately, this is a multi headed beast we're fighting and the gut, while important, is just one of the heads. I've also had this discussion with Ken over at Cfsremission, who publicly promotes fixing the gut as the Holy Grail, and his view seemed to be that the gut is low hanging fruit, as it is an affordable thing to manipulate, but that there are a number of other factors that can keep many of us ill.

    The immune system, infections, endocrine function, toxicity, nutrient deficiencies, electromagnetic fields, genetics, etc. are also components of this vexing multivariable equation.
     
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  7. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    That's obviously quite likely to be the mechanism, I don't know why it took someone so long to propose it in that form.
     
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  8. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Hi Learner1 - While I do think that some with CFS have other contributing factors to there CFS.

    I think the majority of symptoms most people suffer from, stem from a dysfunctional immune system, from a leaky gut, causing mito. dysfunction and most, if not all CFS symptoms.

    Just as Chris Armstrong is saying in this video.

    As Dr. Naviaux has said and I also believe makes sense. The high antibody titers found in cfs are from a dysfunctional immune system and do not show increased viral load by PCR in most cases.

    Just my opinion, based on these and other reputable sources.

    Jim
     
  9. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I have wondered that myself!

    I think there are at least a few other researchers that agree with the dysbiosis and leaky gut theory but for reasons unknown to me, they will not say it publicly.

    I think in time Chris Armstrong and others will prove this theory true.

    Jim
     
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  10. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I
    Not sure about the electromagnetic fields. I think FODMAP is definitely worth looking into first.
     
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    A dysfunctional immune system is a good bet. There are subsets of us with underactive and/or overactive (autoimmune) systems and subsets with infections and both. While the microbiome interacts with the immune system, there is a lot more going on for many of us.

    I just went through Armstrong's presentation with my daughter who is a microbiome researcher. She pointed out that while the bacteria may have an impact on the metabolomics, one is still left with fixing the altered metabolomics to get well.

    I spoke with Naviaux directly and he thought the game is to move from winter metabolism to summer metabolism for the pathways his group found. Armstrong and other researchers have found further abnormal pathways. Righting the system can go a long way to helping us get well, far morecthsn just having happier citizens in our guts, much as we wish that were the case.

    A FODMAP diet can definitely be a help for those who need it. EMFs do affect people, and though they may not be an issue for everyone, there's a subset of people who must deal with them as a driver.

    As the studies have shown, we have unique characteristics to our illness, over and above what we have in common, and solutions will likely include common and unique elements.

    We just don't know enough yet, But its exciting to see what is being worked on and experiment ourselves as we wait for formal findings.
     
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  12. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    When I started a low carb diet,without glúten, I felt like I was not sick anymore. This wonderful feeling or state lasted for 10 days and de then I slowly went back to my "normal" state. Sometimes changing or rotating probiótics can help, but it's a temporary relief . Detox diets plus laxatives Didn't help either.
    I never took antibiotics , maybe it's going to be the next step.
     
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  13. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I agree that a multi-pronged approach is best. I am treating mito dysfunction and impaired methylation, as well as leaky gut and dysbiosis.

    I know of two people though, that I have been in direct contact with, that both recovered by treating dysbiosis and leaky gut exclusively.

    Both were significantly disabled before treatment and could not work. One recovered to 100%, no limitations, the other to about 75-80%. I think she could have gone to 100% but she didn't want to stay on a low carb diet and continue with the supps she was taking.

    They both were only sick for short periods of time though, less than 1.5 years. For me, there experience further strengthens my belief in the leaky gut theory.

    I think the longer one has dysbiosis, the more entrenched bacteria in the gut become in there bio-films. Making it much more difficult to eradicate them.

    Jim
     
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  14. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    @62milestogojoe reported his experience in a series of posts about his treatment in India, basically aimed at the gut. He improved significantly, but only for a few months.
    He went back to India last month, I'm looking forward to hear from him.
     
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  15. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I read his post a while back. SIBO and dysbiosis are very often chronic conditions.

    If one doesn't do whatever it is they need to keep the bacterial overgrowth under control, it will regrow and bring with it symptoms again.

    Jim
     
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  16. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Me too. As well as an underactive immune system, multiple herpes family infections, 2 bacterial infections, biofilms, MCAS, and a bunch of autoimmune antibodies that seem to be caused by the infections. Fixing my diet and gut were essential tasks, but they seem easy by comparison...
    Leaky gut is incredibly important, but it is naive to think that its a quick fix for most of us. There will be the lucky few, of course, but many of us have far more vexing and complex issues.

    ETA - this 2017 study is just one example of why this can't all be attributed to leaky gut...

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=09870C2B73E88196C7C28EF5C0C7BE62.f04t01
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
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  17. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Where did I say fixing a leaky gut is a quick fix for most of us? I gave 2 examples of people that recovered from treating leaky gut and dysbiosis. I never said it's an quick fix for most of us.
     
  18. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I said fixing a leaky gut is easy by comparison with the other problems many of us face. (I don't think its easy.)
     
  19. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Dr. Naviaux addresses that here-

    https://www.omf.ngo/2016/09/09/upda...-fatigue-syndrome-q-a-with-robert-naviaux-md/
     
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  20. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Jarred Younger found 2 subsets - an infection subset and an autoimmune subset. And he says that absolutely there can be a third, with both.

    But... Please go on fixing your gut and see where you get... All I know is I've been there, and found there were many further layers to the onion than I ever imagined. (With positive PCR results...)
     
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