Quick Question regarding MB12 and Folapro

[bertiedog]

For those of you in the know can you confirm that it is likely that one needs at least twice daily dosing of the MB12 and Folapro.

I have been gradually building up my doses of MB12 using both an injectable form and the Jarrow sublingual at 1000 mcg and also Folapro 800 mcg taking these first thing in the morning (in addition to the 3 Thorne Basic Nutrients I take which also contain active folates and B12). It takes till 10 am until I get some good energy through probably because I have severe adrenal insufficiency together with Hasimotos and have to take full replacement dose of steroids and thyroid meds. However I can feel quite well by 10 am but still have the problem of my energy running out after 20 minutes or so if I do physical stuff.

What has been happening in the afternoons is that I do quite well till around 3-4pm then I crash with symptoms of pain in my muscles, a strong feeling of unease, maybe dizziness and a mild headache will develop. This has been happening virtually every afternoon since I started building up with the MB12. I check my blood sugar levels but they are fine.

I take my usual dose of steroid around midday and just a tiny bit of hydrocortisone mid afternoon but I have found I have had to bring this forward by an hour since getting into the protocol.

Today it was so noticeable and I even had muscle aches which felt like detox reaction so after eating a little and taking my h/c I took another 1000 mcg MB12 sublingual and also half of Folapro plus one Neurofen for the pain. They seem to have helped and I was able to go for a walk with my dog ok hence me thinking I need them twice daily.

Finally I don't know my genetics but definitely have a problem with insufficient folate and B12 because I had a baby with a neural tube defect and also a recent Genovations MAP showed that I was insufficient in both of them. It was recommended that I also add extra P5P which I have been doing (25mg) and also B2, 100mg and B3 about 50 mg.

Thanks to Fredd, hope you soon feel better.

Pam

 

[caledonia]

I dose four times a day, but I'm not anywhere near to your size doses (yet). I have to lay down or take a nap in the afternoons, but it's been like that the whole time I've been sick (12+ years).

 

[Lotus97]

For those of you in the know can you confirm that it is likely that one needs at least twice daily dosing of the MB12 and Folapro.

Methylcobalamin stays in your system a relatively short time and methylfolate can help recycle B12 so it seems like it would be better to split up your dose, but like Caledonia said the doses of each individual are going to vary a lot. Some people can't even tolerate more that 250 mcg methylcobalamin and 200 mcg methylfolate while others seem to do fine on 5000 mcg of each.

I have been gradually building up my doses of MB12 using both an injectable form and the Jarrow sublingual at 1000 mcg and also Folapro 800 mcg taking these first thing in the morning (in addition to the 3 Thorne Basic Nutrients I take which also contain active folates and B12). It takes till 10 am until I get some good energy through probably because I have severe adrenal insufficiency together with Hasimotos and have to take full replacement dose of steroids and thyroid meds. However I can feel quite well by 10 am but still have the problem of my energy running out after 20 minutes or so if I do physical stuff.

The quality of Jarrow is very poor now so I'd recommend switching to another brand. Several people have said that Enzymatic Therapy is the best brand, but there's a thread discussing some other brands worth considering besides Enzymatic.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

What has been happening in the afternoons is that I do quite well till around 3-4pm then I crash with symptoms of pain in my muscles, a strong feeling of unease, maybe dizziness and a mild headache will develop. This has been happening virtually every afternoon since I started building up with the MB12. I check my blood sugar levels but they are fine.

I take my usual dose of steroid around midday and just a tiny bit of hydrocortisone mid afternoon but I have found I have had to bring this forward by an hour since getting into the protocol.

Today it was so noticeable and I even had muscle aches which felt like detox reaction so after eating a little and taking my h/c I took another 1000 mcg MB12 sublingual and also half of Folapro plus one Neurofen for the pain. They seem to have helped and I was able to go for a walk with my dog ok hence me thinking I need them twice daily.

Are you supplementing with potassium? Some of those symptoms might be from low potassium. I'm not sure specifically about your thyroid condition, but there is a relationship between aldosterone and potassium

Methylation can also exacerbate inflammation for people with certain inflammatory illnesses such as viruses, infections, Lyme, autoimmune condtions, and metal/mold/chemical toxicity.

Has your activity level changed since starting methylation? Many times people get extra "energy" when starting a methylation protocol and most likely increase their level of activities. That's fine if your body can handle extra activities, but if not your body will let you know that you're doing to much. I have a lot adrenal problems that get worse from too much activities and methylation seems to increase my adrenal symptoms as well.

 

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the replies. I haven't changed my level of activity so it isn't that. Also I take quite a bit of potassium in the form of Lo Salt, about 1/3rd teaspoon x 3 and I also add it to my bottle of water I take with me everywhere. I have to do this because I waste salt because of my poor adrenals and take extra sea salt or 1/4 Fludrocortisone a few days a week. I really notice a different on the days I take the Fludro, I can stand for so much longer without it stressing my body.

One important thing I forgot to mention was that I have a big problem with my gut with a high level of too many bad bacteria plus a small amount of yeasts. Definitely I am low in stomach acid so this past week I am taken digestive enzymes plus hcl with each meal and also some of my snacks plus I have been taking probiotics daily for years.

I have got some herbal tablets to take to kill off the bad bacteria but had a very bad 2 days migraine last week after I had taken them for a few days. They contain a variety of herbs including garlic and often wonder if it is due to the garlic. Will go a bit slower when I restart tomorrow, I have a real problem with starting too many things too quickly and then getting horrendous migraines and have to stop.

Will keep you updated but I am definitely going to take the extra doses but will take them around midday so as not to interfere with my sleep.

Pam

 

[bertiedog]

It was very interesting this afternoon. I work on Tuesday and Sunday afternoons at the local Visitor Information Centre as a Volunteer and it has been a real struggle this year but today it was no problem and I didn't need to take my final small dose of hydrocortisone until 4 pm which is when I used to take it until this year when I was getting severe symptoms even at 2.30 pm on some days.

I had excellent energy, it just began to be a problem around 3.50 pm when my legs weren't so strong but by then I was at the end of my shift. I have to walk up 32 steps to get up to the top of the cliff where my car is parked and this afternoon it was nothing like the problem it always used to be, sometimes I didn't think I could make it my legs burned so much but today they felt so much lighter.

Of course the reason was the extra dose of 400 mcg methylfolate at 12.30 pm together with 1000 methycobalamin lozenge, plus the morning dose of 800 and 1000 methylfolate and cobalamin respecitively (plus 3 Thornes Basic Nutrients which have at least another 400 mcg folates and 500 MB12. I haven't changed anything else as I have been on the gut protocol for over a week now. My legs are still very tired now and I am using my oxygen concentrator for an hour which does help but I am very encouraged and feel sure I have a big need for methylfolate and MB12 plus the nutrients for the gut.

Pam

 

[Freddd]

Thanks for the replies. I haven't changed my level of activity so it isn't that. Also I take quite a bit of potassium in the form of Lo Salt, about 1/3rd teaspoon x 3 and I also add it to my bottle of water I take with me everywhere. I have to do this because I waste salt because of my poor adrenals and take extra sea salt or 1/4 Fludrocortisone a few days a week. I really notice a different on the days I take the Fludro, I can stand for so much longer without it stressing my body.

One important thing I forgot to mention was that I have a big problem with my gut with a high level of too many bad bacteria plus a small amount of yeasts. Definitely I am low in stomach acid so this past week I am taken digestive enzymes plus hcl with each meal and also some of my snacks plus I have been taking probiotics daily for years.

I have got some herbal tablets to take to kill off the bad bacteria but had a very bad 2 days migraine last week after I had taken them for a few days. They contain a variety of herbs including garlic and often wonder if it is due to the garlic. Will go a bit slower when I restart tomorrow, I have a real problem with starting too many things too quickly and then getting horrendous migraines and have to stop.

Will keep you updated but I am definitely going to take the extra doses but will take them around midday so as not to interfere with my sleep.

Pam

Hi Pam,

I have used Planatary Olive Leaf Extract against all sorts of bacteria and maybe viruses. It appears effective twice a day for a week or so. It can cause stomach upset but for me at least and some others, works very well. Also, don't forget the other half of the b12 equation, AdoCbl. That can often get rid of afternoon fade and lack of exercise tolerance and so on.

 

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the reminder Fredd but I only have the one with folic acid in it and I know that is the last thing I should take. Not sure where to get the AdoCbl from here in the UK which is ok? Perhaps somebody knows.

Pam

 

[bertiedog]

I wanted to report that the protocol I have been doing has affected my sleep badly and I was definitely hyper yesterday, especially in the morning, felt like I was on speed. I had taken all my usual supplements plus 800 mcg Folapro, 1000 mcg MB12 lozenge, 25 mg P5P plus what is in 1 Thorne Basic Nutrients. I didn't want to rest and wanted to do loads of things all at the same time which I knew was ridiculous but I found it hard to control.

I was on the go mentally or physically until 3 pm and had woken at 5.15 am and couldn't go back to sleep getting up 7.30 am after reading for an hour. There is no question all this hit my adrenals badly because I kept going very dizzy around 3 pm and really struggled to take my dog for a short walk. I had a lot of anxiety from a raised heartbeat with sweating, it was really nasty. I had a lot of muscle pains in the evening, think I should have taken a bit more steroid but didn't. I only slept 4 hours and then didn't feel right (which is usually a low cortisol symptom for me) and couldn't get back to sleep till 5.30 am despite a small dose of clonazapan which usually works.

Today I have definitely paid the price for all this today waking 8 am with a nasty migraine and feel like I have crashed energy wise. Nothing hyper today in fact the exact opposite. I feel like sh...

I did listen to Dr Ben Lynch's recording yesterday and do wonder if I have another polymorphism like COMT because of the reaction I have had. Originally last week I did start at just 400 mcg Folapro plus the other 400 folates that are in the Basic Nutrients having taken them since 2007. Also I have boosted my MB12 levels with small injections every other day since December last year so its not like I haven't been doing anything and yet the MAP test I did last month showed I had a high need for methyfolate 1200 mcg and a medium need for MB12, Genova suggested only 500 mcgwhereas I am taking 2500 mg in 2 split doses since Monday so not sure this is right in my case.

Today I took the 800 mcg Folapro before breakfast plus 1000 mcg MB12 lozenge and a 0.1ml injection (as suggested by Dr Myhill) plus 25 P5P. I had to take painkillers and Imigran to get rid of the migraine but nothing has helped my energy today so I only took my usual Basic Nutrient at lunchtime plus 1000 mcg MB12 lozenge, leaving off the 400 mcg Folapro. When I took the dog out for a walk my legs were dreadful, there was no energy in them and they hurt everything felt wrong.

Over the past 2 weeks I have also been working on my gut which is gradually improving(betaine and dig enzymes plus a few herbs and probiotics) but can still feel bad bacteria from time to time but it isn't making me feel ill or anything. So all in all I am not really sure what to do because it really was most unpleasant feeling so hyper and a bit out of control yesterday, this is very bad for my adrenals which don't function I am steroid dependant.

Pam

 

[Crux]

bertiedog

Hi Pam, It could be that you are having too many methyl donors in you supplements. Even the betaine in the hcl, is a methyl donor. BTW, I'm not sure if much HCL is needed since you also take HC. Hydrocortisone increases stomach acid. ( I take it too, for pit/adrenal insufficiency, and it's usually enough for HCL production, until I need to stress dose. When HC is low, stomach acid is low, and nausea occurs. I believe you know this already, sorry if I'm over-repeating. I also take extra sodium-chloride if stomach acid feels low. burping, nausea.)

Some people find that a lower dosage of methycobalamin, or methylfolate, or both works better. Maybe it's proportions. ( I see you wrote that a lower dosage of methylcobalamin was recommended.)

So, my guess, ( again), is that excess methyl donors are causing the inflammation and overstimulation.

 

[Lotus97]

bertiedog
Re what Crux said. The 25 mg P5P will also increase methylation substantially for some people. I'm not sure if you just took one capsule or one full dose of Basic Nutrients, but if you took a full dose then the methylfolate, R5P and P5P would also increase methylation.

 

[bertiedog]

bertiedog

Hi Pam, It could be that you are having too many methyl donors in you supplements. Even the betaine in the hcl, is a methyl donor. BTW, I'm not sure if much HCL is needed since you also take HC. Hydrocortisone increases stomach acid. ( I take it too, for pit/adrenal insufficiency, and it's usually enough for HCL production, until I need to stress dose. When HC is low, stomach acid is low, and nausea occurs. I believe you know this already, sorry if I'm over-repeating. I also take extra sodium-chloride if stomach acid feels low. burping, nausea.)

Some people find that a lower dosage of methycobalamin, or methylfolate, or both works better. Maybe it's proportions. ( I see you wrote that a lower dosage of methylcobalamin was recommended.)

So, my guess, ( again), is that excess methyl donors are causing the inflammation and overstimulation.

Hi Crux
I think you are right and I am sure the culprit is the extra betaine it was 1000 mg yesterday in 3 divided doses. Today without realising it I took 300 mg less.

From all the replies I have remembered that in 2007 when I was one of the first to start working on methylation after Rich wrote about it I added TMG but it didn't agree with me at all and caused me massive overstimulation just like I experienced yesterday. I had forgotten that betaine HCL and TMG is very similar. Plus of course the extra methylfolate.

I will have to try and find some herbal supplements to raise my stomach acid or stick to much lower amounts of betaine.

With regard to my steroid I only take 2.5 mg h/c but 6mg Pred in 3 divided doses but don't find I get any acidity from them, wish I did. Now I understand why I have never been able to burp!

Thanks
Pam

 

[bertiedog]

Hi Lotus
Since 2007 I have been taking 3 capsules daily of Basic Nutrients so I have since last week added in the 800 mcg methylfolate, methylcobalamin lozenge and 25 mg P5P. For well over a year I have also been taking Solgar B2 and have continued with this to help with the migraines.

I have only been taking the extra P5p since I got the results of the MAP likewise the extra methylfolate and extra MB12 although as mentioned Genova suggested I only had a medium need for MB12 according to my results. As you will see from my other post I think the problem lies with the betaine, it doesn't seem to agree with me apart from very low doses of say 150 mg with meals. In the past TMG has had me up all night with my brain racing in a horrible way which of course crashes my adrenals which is the last thing I want to happen.

Pam

 

[Lotus97]

Hi Lotus
Since 2007 I have been taking 3 capsules daily of Basic Nutrients so I have since last week added in the 800 mcg methylfolate, methylcobalamin lozenge and 25 mg P5P. For well over a year I have also been taking Solgar B2 and have continued with this to help with the migraines.

I have only been taking the extra P5p since I got the results of the MAP likewise the extra methylfolate and extra MB12 although as mentioned Genova suggested I only had a medium need for MB12 according to my results. As you will see from my other post I think the problem lies with the betaine, it doesn't seem to agree with me apart from very low doses of say 150 mg with meals. In the past TMG has had me up all night with my brain racing in a horrible way which of course crashes my adrenals which is the last thing I want to happen.

Pam

P5P is the coenzymated form of B6 so you might not need as much. Especially since you're already getting 5 mg of P5P from 3 capsules of basic nutrients. Maybe you could just try half a capsule of P5P and then try increasing your dose once you stabilize. It's important to establish a baseline where you experience zero symptoms. That way when you increase your dose you'll know where to go back to if things get too bad. Since you're already getting 250 mcg methylfolate from your multi vitamin, you might want to just take that with your methylcobalamin first and make sure you can tolerate that dose before you increase your methylfolate. It's generally a good idea to only make one change at a time. That way you know what's causing the problem.

I'm going seriously consider my own TMG and betaine HCL intake after hearing what you said because they might be causing me similar problems. I hate stopping things after I already spent money on them. I already have a shelf full of supplements I temporarily stopped due to potential side effects. We can do all the research we want, but at the end of the day a lot of it comes down to trial and error.

 

[Lotus97]

bertiedog
If you haven't already read Freddd's Micro Titration thread you might want to check it out. He gives advice on how to start at a low dose and gradually increase your dose.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-folate-protocol-with-micro-titration.17818/

 

[xjhuez]

A full 600mg dose of TMG makes me anxious and jittery, so I've settled on a half dose of 300mg, which makes me feel a little better. I think the full dose pushes me into a state of overmethylation.

I'm not a lacking taurine or B12, but I could definitely be lacking folate, which I cannot take.

 

[Lotus97]

A full 600mg dose of TMG makes me anxious and jittery, so I've settled on a half dose of 300mg, which makes me feel a little better. I think the full dose pushes me into a state of overmethylation.

I'm not a lacking taurine or B12, but I could definitely be lacking folate, which I cannot take.

Do you have problems with norepinephrine? TMG and other supplements that stimulate the BHMT pathway such as betaine HCL, choline, phosphatidylserine, and Seriphos will cause more dopamine to be converted into norepinephrine. I'm not saying that it's not from overmethylation. I could be from overmethylation instead or maybe even a combination of norepinephrine and overmethylation.

You said you can't tolerate folate? Why is that? If it's from overmethylation have you tried lower amounts of folate and/or B12 and/or taking extra B3 and/or taking hydroxocobalamin? And what about folinic acid?

 

[xjhuez]

Do you have problems with norepinephrine? TMG and other supplements that stimulate the BHMT pathway such as betaine HCL, choline, phosphatidylserine, and Seriphos will cause more dopamine to be converted into norepinephrine. I'm not saying that it's not from overmethylation. I could be from overmethylation instead or maybe even a combination of norepinephrine and overmethylation.

I'm not sure if I have problems with NE. It's a possibility, but I've never been able to nail it down. In the past I considered my panicky-heart racing "attacks" to be caused by NE, but in all honestly the more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

I take TMG because the heartfixer site pointed me towards methyl donors. I get some extra methyl from mb12, but probably not very much. My SNPs also indicate that I want to stimulate the BHMT pathway. I just don't want to overstimulate it.

You said you can't tolerate folate? Why is that? If it's from overmethylation have you tried lower amounts of folate and/or B12 and/or taking extra B3 and/or taking hydroxocobalamin? And what about folinic acid?

I don't tolerate folate or methyfolate in supplemental form - they both make me feel ill. The mfolate especially makes me feel bad, and gives me a terrible metallic taste in my mouth. I've never tried folinic acid.

 

[Mij]

I'm not sure if I have problems with NE. It's a possibility, but I've never been able to nail it down. In the past I considered my panicky-heart racing "attacks" to be caused by NE, but in all honestly the more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

I take TMG because the heartfixer site pointed me towards methyl donors. I get some extra methyl from mb12, but probably not very much. My SNPs also indicate that I want to stimulate the BHMT pathway. I just don't want to overstimulate it.




I don't tolerate folate or methyfolate in supplemental form - they both make me feel ill. The mfolate especially makes me feel bad, and gives me a terrible metallic taste in my mouth. I've never tried folinic acid.

Interesting. I started taking Metafolin 3 weeks ago and I get a chemical taste in my mouth, I also felt nauseous so I discontinued and it went away. I have now switched to folinic acid which I took years ago with no problems.

 

[Lotus97]

I'm not sure if I have problems with NE. It's a possibility, but I've never been able to nail it down. In the past I considered my panicky-heart racing "attacks" to be caused by NE, but in all honestly the more I learn the more I realize how little I know.

Haha, I'm also having trouble pinning down the cause of my symptoms. To a certain extent I experience some symptoms before I eat anything or take any supplements, but I'm still concerned about exacerbating them with certain supplements. I'm not sure if I've noticed a difference since lowering my TMG/betaine HCL dose though...Something I've been looking into recently for myself is if brain inflammation and/or CNS is involved in my anxiety. That seems to be a problem with many of the people here and I have Lyme which can also cause those problems. One thing that does contribute to my anxiety is if I increase my activities too much my anxiety increases. Some people might experience fatigue when going beyond their activity limit, but my body has the opposite reaction.

I don't tolerate folate or methyfolate in supplemental form - they both make me feel ill. The mfolate especially makes me feel bad, and gives me a terrible metallic taste in my mouth. I've never tried folinic acid.

Most people can process folinic acid and convert it into methylfolate so that might be worth a try. I just started takinga b complex with 500 mcg of folinic acid so I'm not taking any methylfolate right now either. Were you by any chance taking Metafolin like Mij? Just realized you were from another thread.

I take TMG because the heartfixer site pointed me towards methyl donors. I get some extra methyl from mb12, but probably not very much. My SNPs also indicate that I want to stimulate the BHMT pathway. I just don't want to overstimulate it.

I understand why you're taking TMG to stimulate the BHMT pathway, but if you're concerned about overmethylation then I'm not sure why you're taking additional methyl donors. If you're not taking any methylfolate then I'm not sure about overmethylation unless you're taking a very high amount of methylcobalamin. Also, I don't see COMT listed in your signature so doesn't that mean your less sensitive to methyl donors than someone COMT ++ or COMT +/- ? Maybe there are other factors involved, but dbkita said that VDR Taq wasn't a valid indicator. If overmethylation is your problem, you could consider taking extra B3/niacin. It uses up SAMe which would balance out the SAMe from TMG (assuming that overmethylation is your problem). Hydroxocobalamin works the same way in using up SAMe which is why it is tolerated better by some people, but again I'm sort of confused why COMT -/- would have problems with overmethylation since you're not taking any methylfolate. This is what Dr. Ben said about it

One has to keep in mind that methylation is dynamic and one can shift quickly from under and overmethylated – in a matter of an hr it is possible – or less – especially if utilizing potent nutrients such as methylfolate or methylcobalamin.

We have to keep in mind that there may be other mutations on board – such as COMT. Niacin speeds up COMT which is one reason why it also may be useful. If one speeds up COMT, then things like dopamine and epinephrine get broken down faster. Niacin also is a ‘sponge’ for methyl groups, namely SAMe, because SAMe is required to metabolize niacin.

 

[xjhuez]

Thanks for the reply Lotus97

B-complexes make me feel sick, too. I try to get all my B vitamins from food. There are a lot of individual B vitamins I should try - folinic acid being one of them - but right now I'm burnt out on trying new supplements.

Is there a way to stimulate the BHMT pathway without a methyl donor? And yes, my COMT-/- indicates I should accept methyl donors. It's possible that the symptoms I feel from a full dose of TMG aren't due to overmethylation. As you said, it could be NE.

Are you taking betaine HCL? If so, msg me your opinion of it, plz.