Query regarding methylfolate and mb12 ratios

[christurn89]

Hi everyone,

I've been a keen follower of this forum.

For the last two years/year and a half, I have had chronic neck, shoulder and back tightness and pain. The back pain is located in one area and can feel numb from time to time. I've also had severe brain fog, a spaced out, detached feeling and a weird kind of fatigue - the only way I can describe it is a lethargic, inflamed type fatigue that is not resolved by sleep. This all developed after a few years of chronic stress at university. Recently, after deciding to take my recovery into my own hands I had some blood tests done -- primarily thyroid, b12, folate, vit d and ferritin. All my levels seemed fine apart from the b12 which was 360, which is in my opinion far too low. Furthermore, the doctor told me the blood test was non-fasting (which it wasn't and I didn't realise until after) so I assume my levels are much lower than this. Also, I have had chronic IBS -like problems for the last five years which developed due to stress and that's probably the reason--in addition to stress--why my b12 is low.

Upon taking mb12 supplements three weeks ago I have had a lot of gains - all my neck and shoulder pain would temporarily subside, my train of thought would be better (but fog not completely gone, I still feel detached and spaciness on the first day thought I felt so close to my old self that it was incredible) and my energy is slowly creeping up. I managed to get up to 4x5000mg mb12 (Jarrows) a day, dissolving under my tongue and ensuring that I keep it there for half an hour at a time. I have also intermittently tried ab12 10 mg at a time (once or twice a week since starting) with good results, things felt brighter and my energy crept up slowly again.

Anyway, I keep waking with tight shoulders and neck, and the place in my back still hurts. Yet after b12 supplementation this passes for the day. I understand I need to incorporate methylfolate, so I tried 400mcg a few weeks a go and it made me very sleepy. I tried again a week later (this time only 200mcg) and this made me feel like I was coming down with the flu or a cold. In the last few days, since getting up to 4x5000mg b12 I have developed a lot more pimples on my forehead and cheeks. I have always been prone to having pimples but this is a massive increase for me. I have heard mb12 supplementation can cause acne and this affects me mentally and knocks my confidence. I thought it could be what I've read as paradoxical folate deficiency so I added 1x400mcg folate three days ago. I felt better, a bit clearer in the head and my neck, shoulders and back felt the best they have in a while. Yesterday I added 2x400mcg folate spread throughout the day - again gains on the pain but felt very brain fogged and a little apathetic. This morning I woke up with neck and shoulder pain and that horrible fatigue I have been experiencing on and off for a year and a half. So today I've taken 15,000mg of mb12 and 2,000mg of folate in an attempt to stabilise and reduce these pimples.

What I want to know--other than comments on the status of my current protocol--is ratios. I have read that when we take a 5000mg mb12 sublingually we dont actually absorb this amount, perhaps 1-2%. Is this the same for Solgar Metafolin swallowed orally? Because if I am only getting say, 500mcg of mb12 at a time from a 5000mg sublingual tablet and 800mcg of folate orally wont this induce methyltrapping?

Also, I have potassium and have done from day one. Could perhaps the potassium chloride or gluconate be causing the massive increase in pimples? Also, when I took folate three days ago, I got random muscle twitches in my calfs and elsewhere I also felt a little numbness in one foot and some pins and needles like tingly. These have all passed however but I feel are signs that I need the folate and potassium.

Sorry for this long message, it's hard getting everything written succinctly and clearly (and I have so many more questions) with brain fog but you guys seem very knowledgeable on this subject and I would love some advice and suggestions. Also, it feels great to finally post here

 

[mtayl2]

Hi C,

How much potassium are you taking? I relate to how you describe your fatigue and the ups and downs etc. I will say, as I have recently gotten all the DQ in place, the potassium need seems to be quite real. Until I am in the 1500mg range most of my heart palps and crampy muscles etc seem little improved. I am still working through a lot of details with ratios etc but all the back and forth and up and down are slowly painting a picture. Keeping a journal has been very helpful to see the patterns repeatedly...and draw some conclusions. It's taken freddd many dips in and out of the deficiencies to pin down what is what...so, I am trying to be patient with the process.

Good luck to you.

 

[christurn89]

I'd say I'm ranging around 900-1200mg potassium powder a day. I also taking Blue Ice Fermented Fish Oil and Lipsomal Vitamin C 2000mg. I'm waiting for my Thorne bcomplex to arrive as my sublingual one contains folic acid but I did take this for a week when I started. Something I forgot to mention is that now I've added the folate, despite the small amounts I am having very disrupted sleep. Hoping people @Freddd @ahmo @whodathunkit could chime in regarding folate and ratios - the brain fog and lack of sleep has me very confused.

 

[whodathunkit]

Hi @christurn89: I wish I could be of more help with this, but I've never been big on ratios. Not that I wouldn't like to know definitively what the best ratio is, but I haven't been able to figure it out! LOL Opinions seem to vary and there doesn't seem to be any conclusive scientific evidence pointing to one set of numbers. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

I believe @ahmo also has a nice document in her signature summing up Freddd's protocol, but can't remember what it says about ratios.

That said, I don't worry much about ratios (of anything); I'm a fly-by-seat-of-pants kind of girl and I go on how I feel. I've been taking big doses of mB12 via injection for nearly a year. I was taking huge doses of methylfolate, too, but now only seem to need about 4mg/day or so, plus whatever folate I get in my food. But I still take injections of mB12 daily (for anemia), and love them very much. I never want to give them up, even if I never see the anemia side of ferritin numbers again. And if I feel I need to, I boost my methylfolate intake sometimes.

I will say that Jarrow is not supposed to be one of the better sublingual brands now...Enzymatic Therapy mB12 is preferred. It only comes in 1000mcg lozenges but it does seem to be more effective.

First guess after reading your OP is that you may be experiencing folate insufficiency or methyltrap Please search "paradoxical methylfolate insufficiency" and/or "donut hole" in posts by Freddd. READ. A LOT. They are complex concepts and it takes some work to digest them.

Brief explanation: you may not be taking in enough folate to keep your healing going, or maybe you're not taking enough mB12 to let the folate work. Both situations can beget the same symptoms. You'll have to do the reading to explain to yourself *why* things work this way, and do some work experimenting to find out exactly which situation fits you.

Then you'll also have to take responsibility for your next course of action: whether or not you increase mB12 and/or methylfolate, or quit because you don't like the sides. And if you decide to increase, by how much how fast. These are all personal decisions. Myself, I had great results with radically increasing methylfolate intake and powering through the bad sides, as per @Freddd 's "purest" recommendations.

But the sides from increasing methylfolate can be intolerable and/or scary for some people. Not everyone can do it that way.

How you progress may also depend a lot upon your mutations (I don't know mine) and the state of your overall health and nutrition, as well as involving other co-factors like B6/P5P, zinc, magnesium, etc. Moving to health with mB12/methylfollate approach is kind of a dance and you have to find your own rhythm. It's a lot of work, and a commitment for sure. But it can also be very rewarding.

That probably wasn't very helpful (more sermonizing than actual info), but it's the best I can say right now. I don't know ratios and the topic is so complex it's difficult to answer questions unless 1) I have a lot of time (which I don't right now) and 2) the asker has some background reading already.

 

[Sherpa]

For whatever this is worth - several of the nutritional supplement manufacturers who make methylation products add just a little bit more B12 than methylfolate. For instance, Active B12 with 5-L-MTHF has 800mcg methylfolate to 1000mcg B12.

 

[Sherpa]

What I want to know--other than comments on the status of my current protocol--is ratios. I have read that when we take a 5000mg mb12 sublingually we dont actually absorb this amount, perhaps 1-2%. Is this the same for Solgar Metafolin swallowed orally?

My non-scientific personal impression is that methylfolate is absorbed much better through the gut than B12 is. I took 100mcg this morning and I can feel it. I would feel nothing if I ate a larger sized dose of B12.