Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Professor Ron Davis's response to Naviaux study, including Q and A with Dr Naviaux

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Ben H, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    As the error message given is
    it looks like it is a problem with the website itself rather than the link. I've tried a couple of other pages and get the same error so we probably just have to wait until they fix it.
     
    TrixieStix likes this.
  2. TrixieStix

    TrixieStix Senior Member

    Messages:
    539
    Likes:
    891
    this made me think of this statement from Dr. Naviaux...

    "Chronic PCR surveillance studies in healthy humans are showing that little waves of viral replication happen periodically throughout our lives. We have been, and are regularly infected by hundreds of viruses over a lifetime.
    Sometimes this is obvious and causes a symptom like blisters or an ulcer around the mouth. However, most of the time these waves of viral replication are silent and produce no symptoms at all because they are handled in the
    background by the innate and cell-mediated immune system. Even the deadly poliovirus infected 150 to 1800 people, producing only mild or unnoticed infections, for every one person who developed paralytic disease.

    In most of the cases of ME/CFS that I have seen where IgG antibody titers have been measured before, during, and after antiviral therapy, the antibody titers remain high after treatment, even though the patient may report symptomatic improvement. I believe the symptomatic improvement after antiviral treatment may have more to do with the metabolic effects of antivirals in ME/CFS than their action on viral replication. The good news is that this hypothesis can be studied scientifically and put to the test easily using the tools of PCR and metabolomics.

    Good science needs to remain open, ask the questions without bias, design good experiments, take careful measurements, then have the courage to follow the data wherever they may lead."

    -Dr. Naviaux http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Metabolomics-QA-for-CFS-v12.pdf
     
    sue la-la, Gemini, merylg and 4 others like this.
  3. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,329
    Likes:
    5,073
    same with me. it could simply be because of malabsorption.
     
  4. TrixieStix

    TrixieStix Senior Member

    Messages:
    539
    Likes:
    891
    interesting... have you seen others on here talk about being deficient in both? I do know that high iron (hemochromatosis) can also cause it and I was tested but no go. It's a short list of things that cause ceruloplasmin and copper deficiency. If malabsorption what would the mechanism or cause be for that?
     
  5. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,329
    Likes:
    5,073
    @TrishaMafia

    I will PM you so not to take the thread off topic
     
    Kati likes this.
  6. Rooney

    Rooney Senior Member

    Messages:
    150
    Likes:
    203
    SE USA
    Did your neurologist use a certain panel testing a group of things where these two stood out? Also, what lab was used?

    I wish I had more info about lab work we can do now addressing some aspects of this new area of study! You may PM me too of off-topic.

    Many thanks
     
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

    Messages:
    15,413
    Likes:
    23,790
    Albuquerque
    If you want to continue the copper discussion please go to this thread.
     
    AndyPR, Jennifer J, Kati and 2 others like this.
  8. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

    Messages:
    666
    Likes:
    1,478
    Tucson
    Working for me now, FWIW.
     
    AndyPR likes this.
  9. Anne

    Anne Senior Member

    Messages:
    295
    Likes:
    723
    @Ben Howell

    About the "sick but never sick" subgroup: The ME patient community seems to be divided into two groups: those who since onset of ME are more susceptible to infections, and those who since onset contract fewer infections, even close to none ("sick but never sick").

    I belong to the susceptibility group (more infections, very easily contracted), and this is a rather large group. Does the Naviaux-Davis team take this group into consideration, too?
     
  10. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

    Messages:
    897
    Likes:
    2,903
    I have not been sick in the past several years. Then again, not actually going out of the house and living alone helps quite a lot with that I suspect.
     
    Webdog likes this.
  11. Neunistiva

    Neunistiva Senior Member

    Messages:
    304
    Likes:
    1,564
    Do you get infections, or do you get ME/CFS flare-up from virus or bacteria attacking your body?

    Do you get new symptoms like high fever, lung infection, vomiting, etc. Does your blood count show an infection?

    Or is it sore throats, mild fever, achiness, fatigue, being out of breath, having tachycardia etc?
     
  12. Anne

    Anne Senior Member

    Messages:
    295
    Likes:
    723
    I get infections from virus and bacteria. I contract whatever anyone has who comes close to me (and I'm house-bound, so I see very few people, but if there is a hint of a bug, I get it) - colds, flus, stomach viruses, etc. Very clear these are not ME flare-ups (I have those as well of course, but they are different). I also get skin infections with obvious bacterial causes.

    And I know a lot of ME patients who are the same - the opposite of "sick but never sick".

    The ME patient community seems to be divided into two groups: those who since onset of ME are more susceptible to infections (”sick with ME and on top of that often sick with bugs”), and those who since onset contract fewer infections, even close to none ("sick but never sick").

    The increased susceptibility group (more infections, very easily contracted) is rather large in my experience (as an ME advocate in Sweden, I’m in touch with at lot of patients as well as researchers and clinicians). I don’t think anyone knows the percentages of the two groups, but my guess would be that the increased susceptibility group is the larger one, or at least as large as the “sick but never sick” group.

    I know the Norwegian researchers studying rituximab and cyclophosphamide are very interested in this division and have added a question about susceptibility to infections to the DePaul Questionnaire which they are using to monitor ME symptoms.

    It would be great if Jason and colleagues could include it in the DSQ.
     
    TreePerson, Johannawj, frozen and 5 others like this.
  13. hixxy

    hixxy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes:
    1,349
    Australia
    @Anne I think some people change from one group to the other over time. I was definitely in the susceptible group in early years (and to some degree my whole life even pre-ME). I swapped to the not-susceptible group 7 years ago when I became more severe. Have not had a cold or flu since.
     
    ryan31337, Riley, Webdog and 3 others like this.
  14. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,099
    Likes:
    17,221
    @Anne, I used to literally catch every everything my whole life, then about 7 years ago I stopped getting infections altogether and developed all sorts of bizarre allergic reactions to everything as my energy metabolism further collapsed from an already suboptimal baseline. There was a clear immune shift. Given that the pattern can change within the same person I doubt that these are meaningful subsets of ME.
     
    snowathlete, ukxmrv, TiredSam and 2 others like this.
  15. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,154
    Likes:
    17,894
    There is the complicating factor that for those of us who are housebound there may be little or no social contact and little chance of being exposed to infection. I think that applies to me - my helpers and visitors know not to come if they think they have an infection.
     
    perrier and TiredSam like this.
  16. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,099
    Likes:
    17,221
    In my case I share the house with several people. It's like grand central station here + visitors coming and going daily. Viral and bacterial infections frequently rip through the house and I'm the only one who never gets anything.
     
  17. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes:
    21,553
    Germany
    I spend plenty of time with people coughing and sneezing in classrooms and my family catch stuff too at times. I haven't caught anything for nearly 2 years.
     
    Sidereal likes this.
  18. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Messages:
    3,224
    Likes:
    7,241
    Couchland, USA
    Yes, I believe there is a point at which the body makes the TH1-->TH2 shift to protect itself. I gather that point comes at a different stage for each unique organism.
     
  19. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,000
    Likes:
    32,294
    USA
    I have not had a cold, flu, fever, etc, since getting ill and in Jan 2017, it will be four years. I am exposed anytime my daughter or husband get sick but have never even once caught anything from them. In early 2015, my system shifted to crazy allergic/MCAS reactions that nearly killed me but since starting IVIG, I now tolerate foods and smells again.

    So my immune system appears to be back in the middle although I have still not gotten sick. I agree with the two sub-groups theory (the constantly sick and the never sick) and that I am in the group who is not able to mount a fever or traditional illness. Everything for me at present appears to be skewed toward the autoimmune side.
     
    TiredSam likes this.
  20. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,000
    Likes:
    32,294
    USA
    I wanted to post an update to my own quote above. It turns out that my blood sample from May 2015 was salvageable so the Metabolon test was run! I do not have the actual results yet but will be setting up a phone call with the nutritionist at OMI to go over them. I have no idea what they will say but look forward to learning more. And then comparing the results if I should do the test in the future once offered by Laurel Crosby's group at Stanford.

    ETA: This is not for any study and just for my own knowledge.
     
    RL_sparky, Mij, Theodore and 12 others like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page