Professor Ron Davis's response to Naviaux study, including Q and A with Dr Naviaux

[Ben H]

Hi Guys,

A new answer from Dr Naviaux on the subject of mitochondria function and homeostasis:

Q8. Since mitochondria have two main jobs in the cell—energy metabolism and cellular defense—is it possible the one function can be overactive at the expense of the other?

Yes. This is a key concept. Our lab classifies all complex chronic disease as being the result of either mitochondrial underfunction or mitochondrial overfunction. Each type has both genetic and environmental causes, but environmental causes outnumber genetic causes in the clinic 10:1. Only expert centers in mitochondrial medicine will typically see the many genetic forms of mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and metabolic disorders. Most academic centers will see more of the “ecogenetic” mitochondrial disorders caused principally by environmental factors. These disorders range from autism to asthma, depression and autoimmune diseases, to Parkinson and Alzhemier disease, and many more.

Mitochondria lie at the hub of the wheel of metabolism, coordinating over 500 different chemical reactions as they monitor and regulate the chemical milieu of the cell. It turns out that when mitochondria detect “danger” to the cell, they shift first into a stress mode, then fight mode that takes most of the energy-producing metabolic functions of mitochondria off line. Even normal exercise stresses mitochondria transiently and reminds the cell how to heal. Cells “go glycolytic” under conditions of stress, using oxygen less and sugar more for energy production.

Mitochondria are highly dynamic in the cell. They will fuse with one another and divide, moving about the cell, changing their location according to cellular needs. Sometimes mitochondria will proliferate so a cell has more mitochondria than normal. Other times they will become hypersensitive to minute changes in one or more chemicals in the environment, overreacting to a stimulus that would normally be undetected by cells that have a normal mitochondrial setpoint.

What does all this mean? It means that mitochondria don’t do just one thing. Sometimes, when one function is overactive the other is decreased. This is experienced by athletes in training. Overtraining increases the energy function of mitochondria, but causes a decline in the defense function and they become more susceptible to colds and many other infections. On the other hand, in CFS, many patients report a surprising resistance to the common cold and many other common types of infection. This increase in the antiviral defense function of mitochondria comes at the expense of the energy function.

Energy production and cellular defense are two sides to the same coin—when you are looking at one side, the other side is temporarily hidden. Mitochondrial cannot perform both energy and defense functions at 100% capacity at the same time. Health requires a dynamic balance of both these functions. It is plausible that when a particular patient seems to benefit from long- term use of a drug known to be toxic to mitochondria, that the drug helps rebalance cell defense and cell energy functions by decreasing the over-activity of one function and permitting an increase in an underactive function. My experience is that this is rare in CFS, but exceptions occur and are important to understand if doctors are to get better at treating all patients. Both patients and doctors should carefully evaluate the pros and cons of long-term antimicrobial therapy if the signs of an objective infection have disappeared. Any drug has the potential to be therapeutic or toxic.

Very interesting! Updated initial post.


B

 

[Mij]

Drugs that are toxic to the mito:

http://www.mitopatients.org/mitodisease/potentially-harmful-drugs

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Ben Howell I can't remember if these two questions have already been asked of Dr. Naviaux but since he mentioned the effects of anti microbial and environmental factors above, I was curious to hear his thoughts on the role of:

- Fluoroquinolone antibiotics damaging the mitochondria (this now has a black box warning from FDA) on this issue but did not then I took it.

- Mycotoxins from mold affecting the Mitochondria.

Thanks!

 

[trishrhymes]

Thanks Ben and thanks to Dr Naviaux. That's so fascinating and so well explained.

I think we should all leave Dr Naviaux to get on with his vital work and not expect him to keep answering more questions!

 

[Sushi]

This thread has AGAIN gone off-topic and several posts have been deleted. Please, everyone, this is a golden chance to dialogue with Drs. Naviaux and Davis--STAY ON TOPIC!

 

[Gemini]

I know that in the absence of NIH funding, it is hard to get all the data. This is a way, similar to what Nancy Klimas is doing with 23 and Me, for patients to get info about their own metabolomics and DNA and really help the research by allowing the scientists to have it.

Agree with you completely, @Rose49!

A long-time, homebound patient, four months ago I volunteered for the Klimas study you reference-- uploaded my DNA data and completed her on-line questionnaires. Easy to do and hopefully of value to the researchers.

Would be more than happy to do the same for Ron and his team!

 

[Ben H]

Its too soon to be talking about what to do. We need more info, like the service being up and running in the US for a start, plus some validating studies. The issue is that in much of the world access to such a test, even if we pay, might be restricted. So facilitating the bureaucratic process might be required on a country by country basis. Ask me in a year or two and I might have a better idea.

Meanwhile those in California will have such services soon, and work is underway to make that international. We need to wait and see, and be aware that even with a test there will be a need for advocacy.

Hey @alex3619

I am working with Laurel on this. She has come up with a way of transporting with up to 33 days transit storage time. Because she is a genius!

We are testing it now before it can go out to public. She has asked me to let people know when it is ready and I will create a thread.

So it should be possible for pretty much every country to have this done. Providing you can get a blood draw and a lab to spin etc.

Hope that helps!


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[paolo]

Hey @alex3619

So it should be possible for pretty much every country to have this done. Providing you can get a blood draw and a lab to spin etc.

Hope that helps!


B

Wow

 

[A.B.]

I am working with Laurel on this. She has come up with a way of transporting with up to 33 days transit storage time. Because she is a genius!

Is dry ice needed? Because that would complicate things quite a bit.

 

[Ben H]

Is dry ice needed? Because that would complicate things quite a bit.

Nope, currently (and Laurel is making sure it works) is using Liquid Nitrogen in a safe for shipping container.

Dry Ice lasts maybe 2-3 days and if it gets stuck in customs, eek.

LN2 this way lasts 33!


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[paolo]

Nope, currently (and Laurel is making sure it works) is using Liquid Nitrogen in a safe for shipping container.

Dry Ice lasts maybe 2-3 days and if it gets stuck in customs, eek.

LN2 this way lasts 33!


B

Who will provide the liquid nitrogen? Will the OMI send a container to fill with the sample and to ship back?

 

[Ben H]

Who will provide the liquid nitrogen? Will the OMI send a container to fill with the sample and to ship back?

Hi @paolo

Its nothing to do with OMI. The shipping container will be provided when ordering the test, so no need to worry about sourcing LN2.

Laurel has it all worked out


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[Sasha]

Is this a separate thing from the $1500 test announced by Gordon Medical today (if I've got that straight)?

 

[Ben H]

Is this a separate thing from the $1500 test announced by Gordon Medical today (if I've got that straight)?

Yes.


B

 

[TiredSam]

ok I've just eaten my first pomegranate.

How long do they take to work?

 

[Mij]

ok I've just eaten my first pomegranate.

How long do they take to work?

You are going to need this many to get any therapeutic effects You're gonna need a bigger truck.

 

[hixxy]

On the other hand, in CFS, many patients report a surprising resistance to the common cold and many other common types of infection. This increase in the antiviral defense function of mitochondria comes at the expense of the energy function.

I have this resistance to cold and flu and gastro bugs, but curiously I also stopped getting hay fever at the exact same time as well, which seems strange as it shouldn't be of viral origin. What I get now in place of hay fever is horrible burning pain through my nose and sinuses.

 

[AndyPR]

ok I've just eaten my first pomegranate.

How long do they take to work?

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

I have this resistance to cold and flu and gastro bugs, but curiously I also stopped getting hay fever at the exact same time as well, which seems strange as it shouldn't be of viral origin. What I get now in place of hay fever is horrible burning pain through my nose and sinuses.

My allergist told me that allergies get better as you get older. I was told this about the age of 55. He said there was no sense in getting allergy shots at that age. I wonder if having reduced allergies makes one less susceptible to colds and flu. I know that it's been about 8 years since I last had a cold or flu.
On the other hand, for the first 10 years of being sick with ME/CFS, I would catch a cold or flu several times a year and I would be sick for several months each time, so I dreaded catching any kind of bug.

 

[hixxy]

My allergist told me that allergies get better as you get older. I was told this about the age of 55. He said there was no sense in getting allergy shots at that age. I wonder if having reduced allergies makes one less susceptible to colds and flu. I know that it's been about 8 years since I last had a cold or flu.
On the other hand, for the first 10 years of being sick with ME/CFS, I would catch a cold or flu several times a year and I would be sick for several months each time, so I dreaded catching any kind of bug.

I was only 28 when this halt of colds, flu, gastro and hay fever happened. I've literally not had any of them for 6 years. Not even once. I had one last big flu then nothing.

I don't think it has anything to do with getting older. I'm surrounded by people a lot older than me that get colds, flu all the time and even hay fever. I also still have MCS, Eosinophilic Esophagitis and MCADs (I'm tube fed), so I'm not short of sensitivities, just short of hay fever. I also still test positive for IgE allergy to wheat, soy and dust mites.

Your description of catching cold or flu several times a year and taking months to recover was basically how I was my whole life pre-ME/CFS and for the first few years of my decline.