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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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POTS relief - could it be?

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
No, I didn't get tested for adrenergic autoantibodies. I spoke to an Immunologist about it but he said there wasn't a commercial test available (in Australia) for these and, as far as he was aware, it's only done in a clinical research setting.
If you are interested, I am currenrly compiling a list of papers and research centers for that. will take a while, not ready yet. and yes there is also a commercial lab. thanks for the paper you sent, I did not yet have that!

i will also reply to your other posts soon. I will be slow as all my little capacities are overwhelmed this week with doctors investigations... so I just ask for a little patience.
 
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kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
If you are interested, I am currenrly compiling a list of papers and research centers for that. will take a while, not ready yet. and yes there is also a commercial lab. thanks for the paper you sent, I did not yet have that!

i will also reply to your other posts soon. I will be slow as all my little capacities are overwhelmed this week with doctors investigations... so I just ask for a little patience.
No problem, I'm always a patient little patient too!
Goes without saying that I'm interested, knowledge is power......well, sometimes
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Llinda I am interested too :D and add me to the list... I also did not think there was a commercial lab doing this test outside of one research study in Germany. I look forward to learning more about this when you are well enough to post. No rush and I am very patient too ;).
 

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
For anyone interested in the Dr Diana Driscoll approach: I opened a new thread here on replacing Parasym Plus by whole food or at least cheaper supplements: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...se-acetylcholine-at-low-cost-naturally.46037/

Its for all those who do not tolerate ingredients in Parasym Plus (like me) and are therefore unable to take it. Equally, in case that one cannot pay its high price. To say it very clearly, it is absolutely not my intention to damage Diana's business. To the contrary, I hope it helps drawing positive attention to it and I hope there will be people who tolerate the product and are ready to pay for sthg that has been tried out already instead of experimenting around. Also, from patent perspective, the knowledge I use comes from scientific publications that were there already before, for example that vinegar crosses the blood-brain-barrier (1991) or that dietary choline increases brain acetylcholine (1973). Dianas patent has a priority date of 2013: http://www.google.com/patents/WO2014160423A1?cl=en
In any case, @DrDiana , if you have any comments, please don't hesitate to let me know, I am interested to hear from you!
 
Messages
19
Question to all: Did anyone with POTS get tested for:

Vasodilators other than histamine:
excessive circulating vasodilators are a reason for POTS. when standing up, leg vessels have to vasoconstrict, which is more difficult if they just dilate.. :eek:

Diminished vasoconstrictive reaction of blood vessels to sympathetic vasoconstriction:
a reason for high-norepinephrine (=noradrenaline) POTS is that the sympathetic signal for "blood vessels in the legs, please constrict right now" isnt reacted to by the blood vessls. so then what happens: the command to constrict is shouted louder and louder. like the proverbial foreigner trying to make himself understood ... :) :)

The issue with measurement is that both of these conditions result in more and more sympathetic activation / sympathetic vasoconstrictory effort, which is well measurable via hugely increasing norepinephrine levels when patient tries to stand. but there we are just generally with all the category of high NE-POTS. so how do we differentiate between the various pathologies within this category? the above mentioned two issues would have quite similar features the so much mentioned vagus nerve anomalities / acetylcholine lack. even the impairment of digestion would be the same , because with all that symp activation nobody can digest.
- but the pathomechanism and treatment in all these cases is totally different!! --> testing testing testing!

I would be very curious.to learn more! Equally, I can contribute some research papers on these & pots. We could open a new thread (or stay here) if there is interest.

Btw I did not see these explicitly covered by @DrDiana
http://www.potscare.com/research/
– intracranial pressure problems
– vagus nerve anomalies
– the activation of histamine- producing cells (not restricted to mast cell activation or MCAS)
– vascular anomalies
– joint hypermobility or Ehlers Danlos syndrome in conjunction with the above

And to avoid any misunderstandings, this line above "did not see these explicitly covered" is not the slightest criticism. It is meant 1. as a question as the above list from Dianas website was not said to be complete but examples; and 2. if the answer is no, then as a small addition to our shared efforts to search for possible causes. I think that just because Diana established new methods of POTS treatment, it would not be a correct thing to expect her clinic to immediately cover 100% of all, frequent or rare, measurable or unmeasurable causes of POTS. We should be happy with what she can give. Having said that, it would be great to know where the current limits of the clinic's offer are, so we understand where it is worth to search further. thanks in advance!
I'm too interested in this stuff as I have issues like MCAS n POTS. Bt is sympathetic overactivity causing MCAS or vice versa? Or some entirely different underlying condition?So many questions..
 

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
Testing for POTS, OH and MCAS

The problem with these is that specialists are rare. Seeing an expert may require long travel which is certainly not a pleasure with POTS, etc. Living in a small country, there may be no experts at all. So before undertaking any bigger efforts, there are plentiful reasons to first get the basic tests done in a GPs office or even at home.


MCAS

it is not so difficult to get tested, see here:
http://www.dysautonomiainternational.org/blog/wordpress/a-tale-of-two-syndromes-pots-and-mcas/
While these are not-so-frequently done tests, here in Europe I found that major labs such as Unilabs can do them.


POTS and OH

Basic tests in any doctors office or at home

The fully official scientific tests as carried out by experts would require a tilt table. GP's do not have that. The good news is that you can safely replace that by the "poor mans tilt table test", which means simply to stand up. On a tilt table, an increase of the heart rate by >=30 BPM (beats per minute), compared to laying, qualifies for POTS. When doing the same study laying-standing >=28 BPM already qualify for POTS. There is a simple reason for the 30 vs 28 BPM difference: standing is a smaller challenge because leg muscles will help pumping the blood upwards.
Here is a good link with all the exact details of what to do and how to interpret the variousest possible outcomes:
http://www.oiresource.com/oitest.htm
You can do all this testing perfectly well at home. There is just one obstacle: many BP meters are inaccurate. Also they require calibration all 2-3 years, which usually no private person does or even knows about. I bought my BP meter after reading reports evaluating many devices for accuracy.
Important: Many people have issues only when there are additional hemodynamic challenges such as in the early morning or after a meal.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3172399/
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tural-orthostatic-tachycardia-syndrome.42733/
This perfectly qualifies for POTS, etc, but the measurement at the doctors office will miss the diagnosis. -> Get tested when you have the symptoms!


Ok, these were the basics. Now, a more interesting thing comes.


Testing for what happens inside: noradrenaline as a measure of sympathetic vasoconstrictory effort

I made the experience that even neurologists and professors at respected hospitals do not know about the following:
A standing-laying study of noradrenaline (=norepinephrine). Standing vs laying noradrenaline is of interest, because it is a measure of sympathetic vasoconstrictory effort.
Even if your BP and heart rate results are only borderline bad or not even that, it can be that your body has to mount tremendous effort in terms of sympathetic vasoconstriction in order to get you standing. The heart rate will only increase if the vasoconstrictive efforts fail. Too much sympathetic effort is damaging to health because sympathicus is inhibiting the parasympathicus and parasympathicus is what is needed for digestion and immune system. The trick is essentially: Noradrenaline can be produced both by the adrenal glands and by neurons. So when doing a single measurement, you dont know where the noradrenaline comes from. But upon standing up, it is only the neurons that issue commands to constrict vessels. They release noradrenaline and this can be measured in the blood stream as some of it spills over into the blood.
What I did: Have noradrenaline tested as I walk into the lab (take care not to sit in the waiting room, but stand!), then lay for 15 min on a lit to get fully relaxed. Then have the noradrenaline taken laying. Instruct personnel beforehand to not talk to you and not make you move or sit up as this will falsify measurements. Ideally they should put a port into your arm, so they do not need to sting you with a needle when laying.
This test you cannot do at home, nor at a GPs office, because blood draws for noradrenaline need special handling. But you dont need to go to a hospital either. It can be done in a lab if they have a lit.

So in the following paper you see that an increase of more than 600 qualifies for hypadrenergic POTS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21947988
There are two things, however, which do not stand in this paper:

First, it is fully sufficient if you reach the >600 only in certain situations, when there is additional hemodynamic challenge, for example after a meal (blood in the belly). So you should get tested then, when you do have the problem, whatever your trigger is. It is uncomfortable to be in a lab then, but for such tests I just had myself drive there with a taxi and prearrange for rest afterwards.

Second, even if you do not reach the 600 noradrenaline increase, you still can have some pathology. The following paper provides normal values for healthy people of different age groups, standing and laying:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167494397000083

My increase of noradrenaline was well bigger than that of healthy normal people but somewhat under 600. Now, one needs to dig for causes. And that is where my next post comes about testing for vasodilators, see below.

A great diagnostic list for further details on POTS is here:
http://dinet.org/index.php/information-resources/pots-place/pots-detection

How about you and your POTS? Did you already get tested for standing-laying noradrenaline?
 
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Messages
19
Hi Linda..Thanks for the prompt response.Regarding MCAS,I'm so sure about it that I didn't test.But I tested both supine and standing (for 15min.) catecholamine levels but it is really confusing as levels drop after standing.I wonder if it is reduced spill over of catecholamine.But I 've hyperadrenergic response on TTT. U have posted a nice link which I 'll try to read tomorrow and post my levels too. Hope u people can help in interpretation ☺..
 
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Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
Messages
420
Location
Geneva, Switzerland
TESTING FOR VASODILATORS CONTRIBUTING TO POTS OR OH

Why get tested
Presence of just any vasodilator would make vasoconstriction upon standing up more difficult, thus contributing to POTS or OH. While this will not in itself cause POTS or OH, it is an additional hemodynamic challenge that can make the difference between being symptomatic or asymptomatic. Actually, I see something simillar everyday in myself: the postprandial relocation of blood to the belly is also an additional hemodynamic challenge. And as it comes and goes with the meals, I can observe well how much difference it makes. After a meal I have the >30 BPM increase in heart rate that is required for a diagnosis and I have big problems getting out of bed. Before meals, I dont have a problem standing, I am essentially healthy. Finding and correcting one or a few excessive vasodilators that have a strong effect like this would cure me permanently. Now, testing for vasodilators is a tedious task as there are many. But the choice is essentially:
  • a) swallow drugs that a doctor prescribes you for POTS or OH, suffer side effects, get some symptomatic relief and never get healthy, or
  • b) do the hard work of finding root causes and start working on them
I do not promise you anything simple.

What to test: excessive vasodilators & diminished vasoconstrictors
I both searched for excessive vasodilators as well as diminished vasoconstrictors, both having the same effect. I got tested for:
  • BNP : brain natriuretic peptide, vasodilator
  • Histamine, vasodilator. Do not get tested for histamine in blood directly, it fluctuates too much. If you have an excess or not, for that methylhistamine in 24h urine is the test, which is a histamine metabolite that you pee out.
  • PGE2: prostaglandin E2, vasodilator
  • renin-aldosterone, vasoconstrictor
  • adrenaline, vasoconstrictor
  • ADH: antidiuretic hormone, also called vasopressin, vasoconstrictor
  • serotonine, vasoconstrictor
  • NO: nitric oxide, vasodilator
  • PGI2: prostaglandin I2, also called prostacyclin, vasodilator
  • I did not yet get tested for ANP, atrial natriuretic peptide, a vasodilator produced inside the heart. Looking for a lab that can do this.
Where to get the hard to find tests
PGE2
is difficult to get, the only lab I know is www.redlabs.be . PGI2 is impossible to get, but you can exclude it: if PLA2 is normal, then PGI2 cannot be elevated. The only lab I know that tests for PLA2 is GPL (Great Plain Labs). NO is done in research labs only, but one can use several indirect tests. This is complex matter, if this is of interest, let me know and I write a separate post. All other items from the list above are done by any bigger lab.

My long search paid off: I found that I have: diminished ADH. This means "diabetes insipidus", which is currently being evaluated.

cAMP: exclude many vasodilators at once
The list of vasodilators and vasoconstrichors above contains the main suspects, but honestly, there are many more. Here comes cAMP: Many vasodilators end up by triggering an intracellular messenger called cAMP. This is an ingenious testing target as you can rule out many causes at once. It is again as with the neuronal noradrenaline (see the post above): some of it spills over into the blood, thus it can be measured. Here is the thread on it:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ng-our-innate-immune-system.8533/#post-751843
In the beginning of that thread you will read an old but great post by @Emootje , which vasodilators cause it. The good news is that cAMP can be tested in bigger commercial labs. If you are ready to not only profit from this but also contribute, you find at the end of the thread a list of open questions on how to make cAMP testing work for us. I would more than welcome discussion partners or contributions in the form of research papers.

More info to come
Finally, an interesting testing target is adrenergic receptor antibodies. I have currently ready the text for several posts on this, which will go into a new thread. To post you only good quality stuff, I have the text currently under review by another person. It will probably go online next week. It is the possibly best explanation why I have excessive vasodilatation and excessive sympathetic activation at the same time.

Convince doctors
Remark: If doctors argue "you dont have (very) low blood pressure so you cannot have excessive vasodilators", dont believe that BS. Fact is that the body has several regulatory mechanisms that may counter that: for example your noradrenaline or your aldosterone can go up to ensure normal BP. But then these are the same mechanisms that get additionally tasked when standing and this can be the point where things get overtasked.
 
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heyitisjustin

Senior Member
Messages
162
@Gingergrrl
from experience and reading on clostridium ...

clostridium bacteria block acetylcholine RELEASE (particularly in the brain).

so, choline may cumulate in the body i understand, but remain unused.
and consequently the whole acetylcholine processing may be disturbed.
sorry, im only able to scratch on the surface of things, unfortunately.

i havent found a drug that would force acetylcholine release.

but im wondering, if this could cause the "magic" reversal in the brain, that seems possible.
someone on here recently confirmed such a reversal, too, i think he took adderall.
Did you ever find anything on this?

I took Miyarisan c. butyricum and am hoping that didn't cause a problem.
However, atypical butyricum could cause ACh problems at least according to http://www.highveld.com/microbiology/clostridial-toxins.html.

Other bacteria block ACh using AChE(an enzyme which degrades ACh) which Huperzine A would help. Clostridium doesn't look like a AChE issue.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Did you ever find anything on this?

I took Miyarisan c. butyricum and am hoping that didn't cause a problem.
However, atypical butyricum could cause ACh problems at least according to http://www.highveld.com/microbiology/clostridial-toxins.html.

Other bacteria block ACh using AChE(an enzyme which degrades ACh) which Huperzine A would help. Clostridium doesn't look like a AChE issue.
While some strains of clostridium butyricum can contribute to Botulinum and Tetanus neurotoxin, I saw it stated somewhere by the makers of Miyarison that their strain doesn't do so.