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Potential risks of thiol supps: IV glutathione, alpha lipoic acid (ALA), N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) etc

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
So I just did about three rounds of Cutler chelation with fairly heavy dosages of DMSA and ALA (50mg and 100mg, respectively) as I had tolerated DMSA pretty well last time I used it, and have been taking ALA fairly regularly several times per day for a while.

Incidentally, I started chelating with the DMSA again because I realized after reading this thread that my recent boosting of ALA intake without doing a proper chelation protocol could account for the increased brain fog and cognitive dysfunction I've been experiencing. Not debilitating, but annoying.

Worth noting is that my cognitive function has generally declined since I started Freddd's methylation protocol. Physical energy has improved but mental function has declined. Possibly due to boosting metabolism via methylation but also needing better detox support (that is just my speculation).

Also worth noting is that I have never done a strict Cutler protocol by the 3 hour dosage pattern he recommends, but experienced benefits in the past by using 3x daily DMSA + ALA + other things like glutathione precursors (glutamine, glycine, NAC), MCP, Acacia fiber, humifulvate, etc.

Finally: I don't have Cutler's book. I just read about him and knocked together a regimen based on a DMSA-based protocol my doctor gave me, what I'd read on Cutler, plus some other stuff about chelating with other substances. I just bought his book but haven't received it yet. It should be here tomorrow.

Anyway, this time I tried the 3-4 hour dosage pattern recommended by Cutler, at the dosages stated above. I was also boosting glutathione using precursors, as well as taking other things like humifulvate and MCP to scavenge lead or other things that might get stirred up.

First 3-day round was okay. Minor headache. Little tired. Recovered well on the (very welcome) 3 day break.

Second round...more tired. Headache or two, not bad. Appetite increased (kind of alarmed about that). Noticed sort of an itching in the "nether regions" akin to yeast (apologies for TMI), but thought it was just coincidence. Started feeling some adrenal stress. Noticed a bit more nocturia (daytime frequency unchanged most days other than what can be accounted for by normal hormone fluctuations).

Third round: More tired, more hungry, more stressed. Feeling quite out of sorts and like I'm trying to come down with the flu. Not bad, just flirting with that "edge" of viral-type illness that most of us are familiar with. Really hard time staying motivated or focused (even more than usual). Increased nocturia and more of an adrenal sleep pattern. Yeasty feeling increased although never progressed to full-blown infection. Noticed I'd gained about 5lbs. I stopped chelation after day 2. I started thinking and decided to order some DMPS based on advice from @TheChosenOne and @David Hammond. Also began to consider whether or not to continue chelation now or wait until after a trip I want to take in September.

Jeez.

So for now I've stopped everything, including all glutathione precursors and high-dose CoQ10. Only been off those for a couple days and already feel better. I think particularly increased glutathione was perhaps pushing detox too fast. I started taking those a few weeks before I started any chelation, and I think it all just added up to too much. I stopped the CoQ10 since the MitoQ does make me a little speedy. I felt in need of generally "slowing down" a bit.

My throat hurts. Right around/behind the thyroid. Especially when I swallow. I'm a little worried about that but since it's documented as a possible side-effect of chelation I'm going to ride it out for now. Not going to worry unless it becomes intransigent and won't go away.

Just sharing all t his crap in case any other Cutler noob finds this experience informative. I certainly have learned a lot from it. Chiefly, Cutler's chelation protocol really does seem to be all that (anecdotal evidence aside, we all have to learn stuff like this for ourselves), but you really need to pay attention to what he says and do it according to his rules. I'm decreasing my dosages and paying stricter attention to the schedule when I receive the DMPS. I've gotten away with some perhaps outrageously big doses of stuff when starting other protocols in the past (methylation, RS/prebiotics) but I don't think this is something I'm going to get a pass on if I choose to go fast. So I'm pulling my head out of my ass and doing it much slower from here on out. Since that doesn't happen often I'm marking it on my calendar. :meh: This is definitely not something to muck around with.

Secondly, I'm apparently more toxic than I thought, even with all the work I've done already. *sigh* It's always kind of sad when reality butts up against self-delusion. I thought I was better all around, even in my worst areas like adrenals, than I apparently am. Hubris goeth before a fall, or something like that. Definitely something to watch out for using Cutler, especially for us around here.

Thirdly, supporting supplements are crucial. I'm radically boosting adrenal support and some other things. I may go to liposomal C again for a while, which I'd kind of stopped because of $$$ and homemade is a PITA. But it's probably worth it for this.

Good news is, as noted above, I already feel better just from stopping the stronger supps. And my appetite is already back down again Thank heaven.

Again, just posting in case anyone finds it informative. Guess we'll see how it goes...
 
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zzz0r

Senior Member
Messages
181
I am having side effects due to glutathione supplementation. Headaches and muscle pain in some parts of the body. I am only in day 2 with 500mg daily dosage
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I've been reading this thread with interest, but I'm not sure whether anything is relevant to me. I'll just post my experience in case it is of interest to others.

I lost several amalgam fillings between about 2007 and 2010. Not sure if I still had any after that, or if I lost any more.

I started taking Healthspan Lipo-Carn containing 200 mg alpha-lipoic acid and 250 mg acetyl-l-carnitine (one a day) in December 2012.

My other supplements are detailed in my profile. They are not ones recommended here, on the whole.

I haven't noticed any adverse effects and am still taking it, as my fat decreased and muscle increased soon after I started it, and I like that! I also had a brief surge in energy when I started, but sadly that didn't last.

I also have worse brain fog at present - although it comes and goes. I can't see a good reason to connect it to the ALA, as I have been taking that for so long. I don't eat fish and haven't had any vaccinations since a tetanus shot in 1995, so shouldn't have an ongoing source of mercury poisoning AFAIK.

It's so hard to ascribe symptoms to causes, as the illness fluctuates due to activity, food, drugs, supplements, and I am even finding that changes in atmospheric pressure affect me significantly at present (low pressure = lower mood; high pressure = better mood).
 

Adlyfrost

Senior Member
Messages
251
Location
NJ
2 Q's:

1. Taking 600 mg TIME RELEASED ALA and doing well on it as long as I don't take caffeine with it- supposed to release for 12 hours. If I took this 2x a day- would this be as good as Cutler's protocol (but without waking up in the middle of the night to take it) ?

2. Anyone get severe nausea with NAC? Been very sick since I started it- weak, nauseated to the point can't get off couch. Before I took NAC I had acute stomach cramps that started when I took extra folate (300 mcg's), but I lowered my dose of folate (to 200 mcg- very comfortable dose for me) and tried the NAC to help detox my intestines, liver etc- but but now I feel worse! Achey, nauseated, weak and flu-ish. Did ok on liposomal glutathione, ALA and other glutathione boosters like glycine. Can't understand why NAC is giving me such a headache. Any thoughts? Thanks!
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
2 Q's:

1. Taking 600 mg TIME RELEASED ALA and doing well on it as long as I don't take caffeine with it- supposed to release for 12 hours. If I took this 2x a day- would this be as good as Cutler's protocol (but without waking up in the middle of the night to take it) ?

2. Anyone get severe nausea with NAC? Been very sick since I started it- weak, nauseated to the point can't get off couch. Before I took NAC I had acute stomach cramps that started when I took extra folate (300 mcg's), but I lowered my dose of folate (to 200 mcg- very comfortable dose for me) and tried the NAC to help detox my intestines, liver etc- but but now I feel worse! Achey, nauseated, weak and flu-ish. Did ok on liposomal glutathione, ALA and other glutathione boosters like glycine. Can't understand why NAC is giving me such a headache. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Similarly I had belly cramps trying NAC. My dose was 250mg.
Someone suggested the disruption of biofilm in the GI tract. Maybe, I have really no idea, I simply stopped taking it.
 

TheChosenOne

Senior Member
Messages
209
2 Q's:

1. Taking 600 mg TIME RELEASED ALA and doing well on it as long as I don't take caffeine with it- supposed to release for 12 hours. If I took this 2x a day- would this be as good as Cutler's protocol (but without waking up in the middle of the night to take it) ?

2. Anyone get severe nausea with NAC? Been very sick since I started it- weak, nauseated to the point can't get off couch. Before I took NAC I had acute stomach cramps that started when I took extra folate (300 mcg's), but I lowered my dose of folate (to 200 mcg- very comfortable dose for me) and tried the NAC to help detox my intestines, liver etc- but but now I feel worse! Achey, nauseated, weak and flu-ish. Did ok on liposomal glutathione, ALA and other glutathione boosters like glycine. Can't understand why NAC is giving me such a headache. Any thoughts? Thanks!
1. How do you know that time release is actually time release? What is necessary are stable ALA levels. If time release does what it claims it does, then it should work. But I've never seen anyone mentioning this.
2. NAC gives me nightmares, but it can also give me an energy boost the day after. It is possible that NAC does what every sulfur compound does, it moves mercury around without actually chelating it. According to Cutler, you'll feel very sick when this happens. From my experience, you only need ALA and/or DMSA/DMPS to detox your intestines.
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
NAC is contraindicated for histamine intolerance. Symptoms vary, but your symptoms are quite plausibly histamine intolerance if you react to other histamines also.
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
I haven't checked in with Cutler for a year or two, but last time I looked he was saying that time release ALA doesn't work well enough to rely on.

The Frequent Dose Chelation (FDC) group is the place where questions like this tend to be answered.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
NAC is contraindicated for histamine intolerance. Symptoms vary, but your symptoms are quite plausibly histamine intolerance if you react to other histamines also.

That's what I thought so would that mean that glutathione is counter indicated too (for histamine intolerance?) thanks and I apologize I have not read this whole thread.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Critterina I realized I forgot to tag you in above post but wanted your opinion if NAC is counter indicated for histamine & MCAS then is glutathione (and in particular nebulized glutathione) also counter indicated for MCAS?

I know it has sulfites in it and not sure how it could affect me with severe MCAS, but also lung inflammation from mold, so it could be a good treatment if not too dangerous. Are there any links on this?
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
@Critterina I realized I forgot to tag you in above post but wanted your opinion if NAC is counter indicated for histamine & MCAS then is glutathione (and in particular nebulized glutathione) also counter indicated for MCAS?

I know it has sulfites in it and not sure how it could affect me with severe MCAS, but also lung inflammation from mold, so it could be a good treatment if not too dangerous. Are there any links on this?

Hi Gingergrrl,

Sorry for my delayed response. I was offline for 2 weeks. Traveling, not sick.

The publication in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition entitled Histamine and Histamine intolerance lists Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) but not glutathione as contraindicated for histamine intolerance. It doesn't list glutathione. My opinion doesn't count for diddly. The article is at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.long

There is also a Swiss website on histamine intolerance that looks interesting, but I don't have the link.

Sulfites are unrelated to histamine intolerance, as far as I can tell. Any protein that consists of two amino acids is suspect, though. Spermine, putrescine, cadaverine, and some others are contraindicated...I remember them. Best if you read the article, though.

I need to point out that histamine intolerance may be different between you and me because of your MCAS. Some foods are called "histamine releasers" which I think means that they could set off your mast cell activation. I don't have that problem - my mast cells seem stable enough and foods like citrus that are problematic for histamine/mast cell activation don't affect me. Yet another case of us each being unique!

Best of luck to you!
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
You nailed it, @amho! There is a "translate" button in the upper right side of the page. I have my computer set so it comes up in English for me automatically, although the right side of the page is in German. The translation can be iffy, or literal (like "buttercheese") so being able to go back to the German helps if you need to figure something out.

Now I remember what it was about this site: Some of the stuff can't be 'told' based on just the listing of what it is. For example, mascarpone can be made with rennet or with culture. If it's made with rennet, it's safe, if it's made with culture, it's got histamines in it. Same with most cheeses - cream cheese made with culture has histamines, even though they may have tested cream cheeses that were not, and were safe. The one thing I think is safe, regarding cheeses, is microbial rennet or microbial enzymes. Just testing, I can get away with small amounts (like anyone is going to eat huge amounts of cheeses). Trader Joe's cream cheese uses culture, but their light or low fat cream cheese doesn't. It takes a scientist to figure this stuff out!

Also, canned tuna fish: in an original article that way pre-dates the Maintz article, they found that tuna varied widely, from 0 histamines to a ton. Good thing I found ONE brand of tuna I could have, during my elimination diet, before I could even spell histamine intolerance. (It's in a green can, chunk light, from Costco.) But if you look at this website, you'd think all canned tuna is bad.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Hi Gingergrrl, Sorry for my delayed response. I was offline for 2 weeks. Traveling, not sick.

@Critterina Glad you are okay and thanks for the detailed response!

The publication in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition entitled Histamine and Histamine intolerance lists Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) but not glutathione as contraindicated for histamine intolerance. It doesn't list glutathione. My opinion doesn't count for diddly. The article is at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.long

Thanks and your opinion does count for much more than diddly LOL. I will check out the article shortly and I appreciate you letting me know that NAC is contraindicated for HI but not glutathione. I am in the process of sorting this all out in my mind as I will be trying nebulized glutathione in the future.

There is also a Swiss website on histamine intolerance that looks interesting, but I don't have the link.

I have the link as @ahmo posted it for me many months ago and it has been a tremendous resource for me. Thank you again, ahmo. We originally used the English/German one but now have the updated translated English list both printed out and on my cell phone.

Sulfites are unrelated to histamine intolerance, as far as I can tell. Any protein that consists of two amino acids is suspect, though. Spermine, putrescine, cadaverine, and some others are contraindicated...I remember them. Best if you read the article, though.

Sulfites are a "3" on that list (on a 0-3 scale) and when you use nebulized glutathione it releases sulfites in a tiny amount which can cause bronchospasm. The biggest risk is for those with asthma (which I do not have) but I have other severe breathing issues so I discussed this in great detail with both of my doctors. I will be testing my urine with sulfite strips before trying the treatment (and if sulfites present, I cannot try it) but if not, I will try it with a respiratory therapist in the hospital (as an outpatient) with my doctor there that same day for the safest possible first attempt. If it goes smoothly then this will be one of many treatments to try to reduce the inflammation in my lungs (from severe mold exposure, MCAS, etc.) I also have severe dysautonomia affecting blood flow to my lungs but that is a separate issue entirely.

I need to point out that histamine intolerance may be different between you and me because of your MCAS.

Absolutely and I agree.

Some foods are called "histamine releasers" which I think means that they could set off your mast cell activation. I don't have that problem - my mast cells seem stable enough and foods like citrus that are problematic for histamine/mast cell activation don't affect me. Yet another case of us each being unique!

Yes there are the histamine liberators that release histamine like citrus but do not contain the histamine itself. For now I am staying away from all categories but this may change in the future. My MCAS is well controlled with 6-7 meds but I am still very cautious with the foods and my entire regime b/c I was so severe in April & May that I was hospitalized and never want to go through that again! Also the fear of having an anaphylactic reaction is enough to stop me from moving too fast. I just don't want to take too big a risk with the glutathione but think it will be okay.
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
Sulfites are a "3" on that list (on a 0-3 scale)
I see what you're talking about...and one one hand I have no grounds to disagree with the idea that it may cause symptoms. But on the other hand, there isn't even an amino acid in sulfur dioxide, so how can there be a diamine? Sorry, the chemistry doesn't make sense for H or A. I would have to think it's in the histamine liberator category, but it's not marked as to which category it's in. So, with your MCAS, it's probably very wise to go slow with the nebulized glutathione.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I see what you're talking about...and one one hand I have no grounds to disagree with the idea that it may cause symptoms. But on the other hand, there isn't even an amino acid in sulfur dioxide, so how can there be a diamine? Sorry, the chemistry doesn't make sense for H or A. I would have to think it's in the histamine liberator category, but it's not marked as to which category it's in. So, with your MCAS, it's probably very wise to go slow with the nebulized glutathione.

@Critterina I honestly do not grasp the science behind any of this but I have a phenonemal doctor who is an allergist/immunologist and one of the few true mast cell/MCAS specialists in the US and I was so lucky to find him when I did as he is now closed to new patients.

I tried all kinds of meds and treatments prior to starting with him and the most helpful medication for me for MCAS is Ketotefin. I know I could probably eat more foods than I am now but am being incredibly cautious and add just a few new foods each weeks (all zeros or ones on the list.) I have not yet tried any food that is listed above a one. My most severe reaction was to Tartrazine (yellow #5) and FD&C and AZO food dyes which I suspect will be out for me forever.

The nebulized glutathione is so highly recommended for me by the mold specialist I am working with that I would have tried it back in June if not for the MCAS. She felt given my total picture it is only safe for me to try it in the hospital setting and it has been a long process to coordinate but I am very close now! As soon as it is called into the compounding pharm and I do the sulfite urine test strips, I can schedule an appt to try it.
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
@Gingergrrl and @ahmo,
I do like the Swiss website as an approach, but it ignores some of the published data (blanks in the Swiss chart) so I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of people who end up reacting to things if they rely only on this chart. Does anyone know what they use as criteria for inclusion in the chart - their own clinical trials or something?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Gingergrrl and @ahmo,
I do like the Swiss website as an approach, but it ignores some of the published data (blanks in the Swiss chart) so I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of people who end up reacting to things if they rely only on this chart. Does anyone know what they use as criteria for inclusion in the chart - their own clinical trials or something?

@Critterina that is a great question and I have no idea what criteria the Swiss website uses for inclusion in their chart. But IMO it is still the best most comprehensive chart out there and less confusing than others that I have seen. But I agree it is not perfect and many foods are not on there at all.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
sorry cant possibly read the rest of the thread but just to say I have problems with sulphites and have MCAS, diagnosed by only one of two specialists who can diagnose it in the UK and I completed 6 weeks of IV glutathione with minimal issues (first IV had to be slowed right down due to shaking and jerking reaction) I also had high dose vitamin IV at same time, which included high doses of Vit C which may have been acting as a mast cell stabiliser.

I actually had an increase in functioning after this treatment (3 x weekly for 6 weeks), although that is not holding unfortunately and neither is the decrease in inflammation. If I could I would keep on having them - they were great!