August 8th, 2018: Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe ME
Have you heard of our Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance? Please join Jody Smith in observing this day and honoring the 25% of those with ME/CFS who are most severely ill.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Post-Methylation Protocol Reactions

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cogent_thought, Nov 13, 2018.

  1. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    Just wanted to post an update on from my introduction.

    My prior supplement logs are available here.

    I had stopped taking methylation/b-complex supplements after suffering too many side effects impacting my ability to work. I feel rather thankful that I didn't push through now. My serum b12 levels were slightly above normal range however I found the tiredness and some inflammation issues relieved by taking approx 250mg TMG on consecutive days which had a surprisingly dramatic effect. I think introducing TMG earlier in my protocol before trying relatively megadoses of b12/folate.

    I'm feeling generally good energy wise. Hypoglycaemic episodes have tampered down a bit however my mood and cognition definitely flutuates strongly with my blood sugar levels. My libido also seems vastly reduced in comparison to before which I'm guessing could mean lower testosterone.

    My main remaining issue is "the brightening" of lights. LEDs in particular can be somewhat dazzling, fortunately I don't have to drive but if I did it would make it a lot more difficult. Any ideas on what could be causing this? At first when I took methylation supplements I very much enjoyed the visual boost they provided, but at this point just feel like I'm over-methylating, niacin does help but mainly seems to reduce any related anxiety than actualy normalise the acuity.

    My allergies are as strong as they ever have been which is a change from when I was taking 1000mg of methycobalamin/adb, however I'm okay with that. To counter this I attempted taking megadoses of vitamin C which my father swears by, however the same day I did took 6-7 grams with no noticeable stomach upset I also seemed to develop greater chemical hypersensitivty. Staying in a Latin American hotel at the time which was using far too much bug spray, this extremely irritated my lungs (I couldn't sleep in the room after a few hours of lying there) and has led to a chest infection. Even general levels of pollution in a latin american city seem to trigger this hypersensitivity. Niacin is helping to reduce this thankfully so my lungs membranes can heal. 30-50mg is the current dosage but I'm not sure how this could knock out of balance the rest of my body chemistry if I take it daily for the next month or so. I'm not sure how much Niacin is safe for me to take given my seemingly altered body chemistry at this point. Melatonin/Magnesium help me sleep at night. I will go keto once I'm somewhere that it's sustainable in the medium term.

    To summarise:

    -Finished methylation supplementation due to increased brain fog/fatigue. Improvement with small doses of TMG (potentially balancing the other methylation pathway?)
    -Attempting to go supplement free in the next few months and stop playing mad scientist with my body. My condition was never crippling, just a low level CFS that no doctor was able to treat.

    If anyone has any insights or advice for the following;
    -Experiencing chemical hypersensitivity to pollution/cleaning products/insecticides etc. new symptom potentially triggered by post-methylation supplement Vitamin C megadose. Reduced by niacin.
    -Experiencing visual brightening that is distracting in addition to reduced libido, not really affected by niacin.

    As a final note, I would say that the advice given by some to not test yourself before beginning a methylation protocol is foolish. Although I felt initially good from the b12 and enjoyed the visual brightening I believe it is a poor indicator of overall health.

    Thanks for any advice!
     
    Methyl90 and Learner1 like this.
  2. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,253
    Likes:
    1,404
    Austria
    Not necessarily. A serum B12 or B9 are only good to detect a straight deficiency. Higher levels can't mean that these important vitamins are actually metabolized. Or are only accumulating while still deficient.

    What I do find wiser is to always start with a very low dose of a new nutrient, and then increase gradually over weeks, months and years. Thereby one can react immediately and avoid any unpleasant side-effects by decreasing doses and adding probable missing co-nutrients.

    For sufficient B6, B9 or B12 status a simple serum homocysteine test is much more telling.

    Vitamin C at high dose does chelate and mitigate damage from oxidative damage of any toxin. Though taking much higher doses (~24 g/d for 10 years) never experienced a detox reaction, but the opposite. In my case in that dosage range it does help with rhinitis symtoms as well as any anti-histamine. Your chemical-sensitivity reaction might be unrelated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
    Methyl90 likes this.
  3. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    Hi @pamojja thanks for your response! :heart:

    I understand and agree the serum test is not complete. I think you mean to say that higher levels can mean that the vitamins are metabolized or are only accumulating. The test is not definitive, but it can also mean the opposite; that the vitamins are being sufficiently metabolized and are accumulating as you are sufficient in that vitamin.

    Having a baseline test is useful. I only say it's foolish to not test prior to commencing because of personal experience and ease of knowing a baseline. Now I have no baseline to judge against.

    The reason I suggest that Vitamin C may cause such a reaction is that it is known to increase the uptake of aluminum and I'm speculating that it triggered some kind of over-sensitivity due to it being the only supplement I increased heavily at the same time. Maybe in combination with some type of altered methylation it affected membrane absorption somehow...I think that typically Vitamin C assists histamine response (as witnessed in my father) but something else non-regular in my current body chemistry meant the megadose affected me in a different way. Pure speculation but just trying to see if there are any other routes to reduce these symptoms at this point other than just waiting it out for months which should hopefully see some kind of normalisation.:)
     
  4. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,253
    Likes:
    1,404
    Austria
    It only may increase side effects of acetaminophen, nothing about increasing uptake of aluminium at least on the site you linked too.

     
  5. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    Thank you @pamojja I think I misinterpreted that.

    One thing I didn't mention is I'm have been taking lecitin most days, I thought this would just be providng some healthy lipids to my system but it's probably driving some of the excess energy/insomnia although it's milder than TMG it operates on the same pathway is my understanding. I feel like I should stop taking fish oil too in case there's any side effects I'm not accounting for!

    Reading this thread I can see that cucurmin is on the list of things I can try to calm everything down but that maybe niacin is on the list of things I should try and avoid to maintain optimal insulin sensitivity. I also have gingko on hand.

    Apparently magnesium glycinate is a methyl donor so I'll stop taking that too, along with the trace minerals I was taking. Guess I'll be taking nothing but melatonin! Sounds like bliss. I'll be reporting back in for any ideas from others as I ween myself off of these supplements and try to bring myself back to a manageable baseline.
     
  6. Hufsamor

    Hufsamor Senior Member

    Messages:
    475
    Likes:
    1,454
    Norway
    I made myself rather sick on a methylation protocol.

    I finally took a 23and me test and got a very clever doctor
    (He speaks English and does online sessions and he's not too expensive.)
    He pointed out things I would never have figured your on my own,
    and it turned out to be correct as far as I can tell.

    For several reasons I only followed up this for 3 months,
    but by then I had already several issues cleared out.


    If I was to start all over again, I would have started with the test and the doc.

    (I have to edit myself, his not a doctor but a nutritionist? If that's the word?)
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
    Methyl90, Learner1 and cogent_thought like this.
  7. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    Hi @Hufsamor is it possible to send me this doctors details in a PM?

    Thank you!
     
    Methyl90 likes this.
  8. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,253
    Likes:
    1,404
    Austria
    Sure it is helpful to have a baseline, but subsequent tests in my experience are of not much use. For example in serum had 179 pg/ml of B12 (187 - 883 range) and 5.7 ng/ml of B9 (4,6 - 18,7 range) before commencing to supplement. A frank B 12 deficiency and far from optimal B9. The 10 years after and supplementing 1800 pg/ml of B12 and 22 ng/ml B9 in average. However, despite increasing all involved nutrients over the years never got my homocysteine to stay optimal, yet. On the other hand, no bad side-effects from very comprehensive supplementation of all nutrients, including high dose fish-oil.. We are all reacting so differently.
     
  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes:
    5,645
    Pacific Northwest
    This is a very smart observation. If you don't test up front, you don't know what problem(a) you're solving, and many people have made things worse by guessing wrong
    This is about much more than homocysteine. And the homocysteine test won't tell you which one you need, or that you need TMG, methionine, magnesium, potassium, B1, molybdenum, glycine, glutamine, NAC, or phospholipids, all of which have roles to play in methylation and detoxification.

    A comprehensive test like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval is extremely useful because it allows you to look at the entire situation in one place, abd build a comprehensive plan that works from Day One, without unwanted unpleasant symptoms, saving months or even years of buying snd tinkering with the wrong combination of supplements, lengthening the time to improve.
    Exactly. However, you can still test now and have a new baseline and can go from there. One fallacy is that people think they need to find their pwrsonal protocol and it will be cast in stone from there on. This is not true at all. We may have an underlying genetic predisposotuin for things to work a certain way, but as our bodies encounter different toxins, infectuos agents, diet, changes in activity levels, etc. our needs change. I have been testing for several years and have found that my needs have varied quite dramatically, with ups and downs in dosing of the various nutrients that don't change in lock-step fashion.
    I disagree completely. Mine have been invaluable at changing my protocol, and moving new developments, like my need for amino acids as Fluge and Mella found for female ME/CFS patients - a homocysteine test sure wouldn't tell me that ..
     
  10. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,253
    Likes:
    1,404
    Austria
    I was taking about numerous serum B9 and B12 tests only, which gave no further insight. Not something as comprehensive as a NutrEval done repeatedly, which is simply out of my financial mean. My higher need for amino acid and its improvement with supplementation was also apparent with most simple serum proteins lab-testing.

    'Only' could spend about 800,- EUR for out of the pocket lab-testing the last 10 year - that would have bought me just one NutrEval, but no further necessary follow ups. 1 single NutrEval also only can tell your problem areas. To know the exact doses of various nutrients at different times it still needs experimenting and regular NutrEval reevaluations. Of course, if I could afford I would be the first who did it too.

    However despite, my still comprehensive supplementation plan did already improve from Year One a non-reversible condition, by nudging mostly free to get lab-markers in the right direction, and had virtually no unpleasant symptoms I couldn't remedy with my approach. So there is a viable and effective approach for the 'poor' too.

    Without practitioner (which I also couldn't afford) it does depend on continuing self-education, careful experimentation and getting as many lab tests one can get repeatedly too, though.
     
  11. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

    Messages:
    470
    Likes:
    451
    Mood fluctuations are a feature of bipolar disorder and are often treated with lithium.

    LITHIUM IN THE TREATMENT OF BIPOLAR DISORDER: PHARMACOLOGY AND PHARMACOGENETICS

    B12 absorption depends on B12 binding proteins. These are induced by lithium.

    Release of Vitamin Binding Proteins from Granulocytes by Lithium: Vitamin B12 and Folate Binding Proteins

    Evidence that Lithium Induces Human Granulocyte Proliferation: Elevated Serum Vitamin B12 Binding Capacity in Vivo and Granulocyte Colony Proliferation in Vitro

    It seems conceivable to me that high dose supplementation of B12 could induce increased production of these proteins and deplete lithium and leave one vulnerable to mood disorders. I have not seen any studies indicating this, although there is this thread and others similar scattered around Phoenix Rising:

    Consider this before you go down the MTHFR self-treatment rabbit hole

    Phospholipid metabolism is thought to be involved in bipolar disorder, and lecithin contains phospholipids. An article in PsychCentral says that some studies show that lecithin "can stabilize mood, while others indicate that it tends to depress mood".

    Lecithin also contains phosphatidylinositol, which provides inositol, whereas inositol depletion is considered to be a mechanism by which lithium relieves bipolar symptoms.

    Inositol depletion, GSK3 inhibition and bipolar disorder

    It should also be noted that lithium may induce or exacerbate psoriasis.

    Lithium and Psoriasis: What Primary Care and Family Physicians Should Know

    And the treatment for lithium-induced psoriasis? Inositol.

    The effect of inositol supplements on the psoriasis of patients taking lithium: a randomized, placebo-controlled trial.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  12. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    Thanks for this @Eastman super interesting.

    I previously read this thread and wish I had paid more attention whilst doing the protocol. At least now I am fairly stable but still having some side effects, I've been off the b12 for about 3 weeks now.

    I'm sure that the high doses of b12 offset a lot of things within me, potentially lithium (my psoriasis has decreased substantially over the b12 supplementation period). I'm don't want to introduce any new supplements into my life at this point at as they seem to have caused a lot of issues. Last night I had to take anti-histamine (cetrizine) to ward off potential environmental environmental sensitivity which I don't even see making sense from a scientific standpoint as it's not an allergic reaction but an irritant one.

    The only other thing I have allowed myself is a daily cup of gingko tea which seems to help with mood/chemical sensitivity.

    I can see from reading around about re-feeding syndrome I could be deficient in Thiamine as another option. Super scared to try another vitamin particularly as it is just a guessing game based on symptoms, but waiting this out for months indefinitely seems like a grim prospect with the daily ups and downs in energy and mood.

    Are there any known risks from testing a bit of low dose thiamine after finishing b12 supplementation? Don't want to knock myself into a different imbalance! I see the b-complex I was using for methylation support did contain thiamine but the proportions of b vitamins seem to have been mostly arbitrary. Seems like a bit of a guess but may be worth a try for me...

    I saw @Gondwanaland might have an opinion on the above.
     
  13. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    @Learner1

    Sage advice. Unfortunately I don't have access to this testing at the moment so I'm still somewhat playing whack-a-mole. Hopefully I don't give myself more problems if I try 1 or a few smaller doses of B1.
     
  14. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

    Messages:
    470
    Likes:
    451
    If you're talking about dosages of just a few multiples of the RDA, I think the risk of inducing an imbalance should be minimal, especially if you are already taking a B complex.

    For high dose thiamine, though, the risk is certainly there. Some possible induced deficiencies include B2 (see for e.g. here), B3 (see for e.g. here) and electrolytes (see e.g. here).
     
    Learner1 likes this.
  15. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    3,280
    Likes:
    5,645
    Pacific Northwest
    Getting some data is far better than guessing, which can lead to trouble...
    ...like this...
     
    cogent_thought likes this.
  16. cogent_thought

    cogent_thought

    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    10
    So I have been doing a lot more research to understand what I think is happening.

    I've realised that I've become incredibly sensitive to any kind of carbohydrates or caffeine. They seem to provoke an anxiety response. Alcohol eases this tension and drinking chamomile tea does too ( a little bit). FOr obvious reasons alcohol is not a long term option.

    Not eating carbohydrates is a real drag and I feel like it will lead to me dropping weight as I'm unable to prepare all my own meals at the moment.

    I'm concluding that I have too much glutamate production in my system based on those symptoms. I can counter this by raising serotonin or GABA levels but it doesn't get to the core of the matter of what is causing this glutamate production? Is there anything in the methylation cycle that would trigger excess glutamate? I see there are some threads about it.

    I finally stumbled upon someone who had a similar reaction here

    @AVA if you're out there, please get in touch through this thread or pm! :) I'm curious what the chinese formula was based around.

    I guess I will try some of the glutamate reducing supplements, NAG etc. to help. At the moment I only have Tumeric to hand.

    Maybe Thiamine is still the key here, as I've really only identified the mechanism of the symptoms, rather than the cause of the mechanism. If anyone has any ideas around reasons for increased Glutamine production, I'd be eager to hear!

    Happy Early Thanksgiving to all the Americans! Thankful to enjoy some sunshine today :)
     
  17. Methyl90

    Methyl90

    Messages:
    32
    Likes:
    8
    @pamojja i have 15 homocysteine level. What suggest for this ?
     
  18. Methyl90

    Methyl90

    Messages:
    32
    Likes:
    8

    Can I receive the details too? thank you
     
    Hufsamor likes this.
  19. Hufsamor

    Hufsamor Senior Member

    Messages:
    475
    Likes:
    1,454
    Norway
  20. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,253
    Likes:
    1,404
    Austria
    Despite the shortcoming of serum lab tests, I would start with testing serum folate and vitamin B6 and B12, if you haven't already. They would show outright deficiencies if present. Better would be a RBC folate and a Transcobalamin or urinary methylmalonic acid test, but these are also more expensive and probably would have to be paid out of your own pocket.

    Without any of these tests or if they all show sufficient levels, I would start with a good but inexpensive B-complex, which contains activated forms of B2, B6, B9 (methylfolate) and B12. Like for example this (they also have a European store). If that wouldn't suffice on retesting after some months, a sublingual Methylcobalamin lozenge, and a further Methylfolate tablet, both at 1 mg per piece. If homocysteine still remained unresponsive I would add a pyridoxal 5'-phosphate tablet and gradually increase B9 and B12, further adding in TMG gradually increasing to 2-3 g/d. There are further nutrients which have some evidence in reducing homocysteine, but these are usually the main missing.

    Be aware that that blood levels all do fluctuate, and usually it takes repeated testing over a couple of years to get sure where you're at. Optimal would be something below 8-9 ┬Ámol/L
     
    Methyl90 likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page