The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

POLL: Do you have tenderness at Perrin's point on your left breast (diagnostic for ME/CFS)?

Discussion in 'General Symptoms' started by Hip, Nov 15, 2017.

?

Do you have soreness or tenderness when you press into Perrin's point on your left breast?

  1. For the ME/CFS patient (you): YES, it feels sore or tender when I press at Perrin's point

    60.0%
  2. For the ME/CFS patient (you): NO, it does not feel sore or tender when I press at Perrin's point

    31.1%
  3. For the ME/CFS patient (you): NOT SURE if it is tender or not at my Perrin's point

    7.8%
  4. For the healthy control (optional): YES, it is sore or tender at Perrin's point

    2.2%
  5. For the healthy control (optional): NO, it is not sore or tender at Perrin's point

    3.3%
  6. For the healthy control (optional): NOT SURE if it is tender or not at Perrin's point

    1.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    488
    Likes:
    669
    Rocky Mountains
    I have sore tender points all over, too. But no diagnosis of Fibro. Perrin point is sore but so is everything around it. I don't have a lot of pain if I am just sitting or walking, but using a foam roller can be excruciating. Have been that way since my first major flare in 2012.
     
    Hip likes this.
  2. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,466
    Likes:
    2,212
    idem for me, both sides...But I have much tender points everywhere in my body....
    I'm convinced that Fibro probably have many tender points on both sides, and ME/CFS doesn't exclude fibro...

    I may also have myopathy, so I don't think that in my case this tender point is 100% associated with a ME/CFS diagnostic...

    I am also a bit septical about finding a tender point on a single side, but this could be more specific I guess...
     
    Mary likes this.
  3. hinterland

    hinterland

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    148
    I’ve had a quick prod and not been able to induce a tender point in myself, so doubt self-diagnosis is accurate.

    However, I had a physiotherapist induce pain at this point coincidentally when doing a musculoskeletal examination. By my reaction she could see the area was tender, but hadn’t heard of Perrin’s point. It took me a few moments to remember about it myself.

    I was examined by Ray Perrin himself many years ago and diagnosed with tender Perrin’s point and other positive signs for ME/CFS. I had about 4 treatment sessions, which were provided free of charge in return for participating in research. The first one I felt some benefit from, clearer vision. The further treatments, one a week, didn’t appear to have any effect.
     
    sb4 and Mary like this.
  4. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,265
    Likes:
    12,030
    Silicon Valley, CA
    I'm sure I'd qualify for fibro... I've had the 19-point tender points test and had every point be tender.

    Despite that, my pain on an average day is 2 or 3 of 10 and I don't consider it a significant symptom in terms of its effect on my QOL.
     
    BadBadBear, alkt, Mary and 1 other person like this.
  5. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    3,729
    Likes:
    8,288
    Southern California
    I don't have fibro or any pain in general ..... but definitely have ME/CFS! One of my healthy sisters just took this test and had no pain at all. But another sister who has rheumatoid arthritis but not me/cfs said she's always had pain when pressed on (even before the RA) - we're all over the map! :confused: So I'm going to vote yes for one and no for the other.

    @Hip - I just tried to add votes for my sisters. I was able to change my vote so I did one yes (for ME/CFS patient with pain - me), and one no (non-ME/CFS patient and no pain), but I need to add another one for non-ME/CFS patients with pain, but it won't let me add the third vote.
     
    alkt and JaimeS like this.
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,775
    Likes:
    17,869
    @Mary, the poll is set up so that you can say whether or not you (the ME/CFS patient) has tenderness when pressing Perrin's point, and optionally whether or not a healthy friend has this tenderness (so you get a maximum of two votes), but there is no way of adding extra ME/CFS patients or healthy friends. I would add the results from your healthy sister, rather than the sister with rheumatoid arthritis, because this poll is asking for results from healthy controls.

    However, the fact that your sister with RA has pain when pressing Perrin's point is interesting, because as discussed earlier, in order for this Perrin's point tenderness to be a useful diagnostic for ME/CFS, it would have to absent not only in healthy people, but also absent in people with diseases other than ME/CFS. Otherwise it would not be a unique diagnostic for ME/CFS.
     
    alkt, sb4, Scarecrow and 2 others like this.
  7. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    3,729
    Likes:
    8,288
    Southern California
    Hi @Hip - FWIW, my sister with RA says she has always been like this, even way before the RA started. And she also says it has always hurt wherever she presses and she never understood why doctors were puzzled by that. (we tend to think everyone experiences the world the way we do)

    Anyways, I think she would be hard to classify in this instance. It would have been interesting if this had only started in connection with the RA, but it didn't. And hurting all over - that's something else too, though I don't know what.
     
    alkt and JaimeS like this.
  8. gabriella17

    gabriella17 Senior Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    718
    Phoenix, AZ
    I had no idea this was a thing. Just tested myself, and indeed the left hurts!
     
    alkt, JaimeS and Hip like this.
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,775
    Likes:
    17,869
    Before your sister developed rheumatoid arthritis: did she find that there was pain on pressing just at Perrin's point, or were there multiple areas on her body where pain was elicited by pressing? You can get lymph nodes in various places that can be tender.

    Enlarged, swollen or tender lymph nodes are quite common in autoimmune diseases, so maybe you sister had some autoimmune processes going on even before the RA had fully manifested.
     
    alkt likes this.
  10. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

    Messages:
    3,729
    Likes:
    8,288
    Southern California
    She developed RA about 4 years ago. She's 67 now. She said she had pain when pressing anywhere on her breast, not just the Perrin's point, for as long as she can remember. So we're talking a long time. She did have rheumatic fever as a child - maybe that caused some sort of autoimmune process, but overall she was remarkably healthy until just a few years ago. I think there is some literature about a possible connection between rheumatic fever and RA though it's been awhile since I've looked it up.
     
    alkt and JaimeS like this.
  11. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes:
    10,668
    I have equal tenderness on both sides.
     
    alkt, pattismith and Hip like this.
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,775
    Likes:
    17,869
    I am not too clear on this, but I think Dr Perrin finds that ME/CFS patients have tenderness just at Perrin's point, rather than the whole breast or breasts. If someone has tenderness throughout the breast area, I am not sure whether that counts or not as tenderness at Perrin's point.
     
    alkt, JaimeS, Scarecrow and 1 other person like this.
  13. lior

    lior Senior Member

    Messages:
    511
    Likes:
    1,752
    London
    I'm going to try again tomorrow... I suspect prodding myself to find it may have made it accidentally tender.

    I have boobies - surely this is a more difficult test on women than men? Bit tricky to find the spot with breast fat in the way. Additionally, breasts can be tender because of the time in one's monthly cycle.

    Are there any other points I could check?

    Often I find myself pressing my sinuses - that's a lymph thing, right?
     
    alkt likes this.
  14. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,387
    Likes:
    411
    Id have to say that the left does hurt more than the right
     
    alkt likes this.
  15. lenora

    lenora

    Messages:
    8
    Likes:
    22
    Boy, does this entire write-up describe me perfectly!! As described, I also have syrinxes in my spinal cord (Syringomyelia), couple with Arnold-Chiari Malformation. Over 30 yrs. ago when the only way to stop the build-up of fluid in my cord (& into brain) was surgery inserting a shunt into my cord, I awakened from anesthesia with I'd had a mastectomy on my l. side. To this day the severe pain from the l. breast that wraps around under my arm & to the area where the shunt was inserted, is still severe. Back then, it was unimaginable (nerve pain was impossible to treat until gabapentin came along). Anyway, I'm talking suicidal pain. In addition, I have severe (I mean that word when I use it) pain b/c of scoliosis, kyphosis & lordosis. I was wearing braces alternating with casts from the age of 4 yrs. I have everything described and have been diagnosed with ME/FM, also. I'm now in my 70's & have found the FM has become better in some areas, but moved to others. I know a lot about acupressure & have used Osteopaths over the yrs. My neurologist/neurosurgeon know & tell me to do whatever helps. This is like striking gold for me!! Would be interested in anyone else who has had SM, and Arnold-Chiari Repair surgery. Sorry it's long.
     
    alkt and sb4 like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page