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Please help! Gut Issues, MTHFR, MTRR, CBS - Detox issues.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by canyouhearmeaya, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. canyouhearmeaya

    canyouhearmeaya

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    Hi all, new to the board, thanks for having me! Sorry if this ends up being a really long post.
    I'm a 26 year old male, have had issues throughout my life with fatigue, mood issues, often feeling very irritable, brain fog, and just generally not very good! In spite of this, I have had a FEW short periods, where I have felt great.

    To cut a long story short, I believe a big part of my issue to be gut related. Dysbiosis/candida, something to that effect. Everytime I can take kind of antifungal, be it coconut oil, garlic, pau d'arco etc, I get a 'die off' reaction. I've had issues with bloating my entire life, soft stools, feeling like crap after eating, digestio not feeling very good etc. I had a binge eating disorder for around 10 years, and did a few rounds of antibiotics as a kid... and also grew up on a terrible diet full of sugar and junk.. so I have no doubt in my mind thos things collectively have destroyed my gut lol. Thankfully, the binge eating disorder is fully resolved, and my relationship with food is now great. Now I am just trying to resolve my symptoms of fatigue, mood, irritability, brain fog, mild depression and anxiety etc and get my life back together.

    The last 4 weeks I have been working on gut health. All sugar removed, currently on almost a keto diet, whole foods only, have been using 50 billion CFU probiotic, antifungals, then rotated to sacromyces boulardii etc, a typical anti-candida approach which I believe is having benefits.

    However, it became very clear to me when I started this protocol that this is what triggers my symptoms over the years. When my body is flooded with toxins, it seems my liver can't keep up. I get a lot of symptoms of liver issues i.e. red itchy skin, fatigue, brain fog, abdominal bloating and water retention, but blood work shows my liver itself is actually healthy.

    My 23+Me test shows I have some polymorphisms which I believe may explain my issues. I presume if my methylation cycle isn't working properly, and potentially also issues with sulfur, then my liver can't function at 100%. Pair that with an issue like candida/dysbiosis which in curing causes a huge release of toxins, it makes for a pretty rough time.

    I believe sulfur may also be an issue as this week I was trying to include high sulfur foods to help my liver detox, but then started getting strong sulfur gas... so I suspect actually that pathway isn't working properly. I have methylfolate and methylcobalamin, I have tried taking these on a few occasions but can make me feel more anxious / worse, so I suspect I'm bottlenecked elsewhere.

    Here are my SNP results (heteros and homos):
    COMT V158M: +/-
    COMT H62H: +/-
    VDR Taq +/+
    MTHFR C677T +/-
    MTRR A66G: +/+
    BHMT-02 +/-
    CBS C699T +/-
    SHMT1 C1420T +-

    On a blood test a few months ago, my folate was in range but near the bottom, my b12 was actually top of the range.. However I did wonder, if I am MTRR homozygous for example, could b12 blood work alone by meaningless? I could be at the top of the range but still have issues as it can't recycle properly?

    Can methylation issues also cause liver dysfunction to the point it affects hormones?

    Reason I ask is because when I was a teen, I had quite severe gynecomastia (development of breasts in men) which I had surgery to remove the gland. I know this is also often common with liver dysfunction.. I suspect its my body struggling to remove/process estrogen, could that be linked to the issues above?

    The strange thing is, during the times I've felt best, I had a very limited diet of:
    chicken breast, green beans, almonds, avocado and sometimes kidney beans...

    What I wonder now is if this worked because A) it didn't feed candida b) I wasn't including any antifungal foods triggering die off C) its fairly low in sulfur D) and possibly the fact that the molybdenum and manganese helped with sulfur issues in combo with low sulfur diet..

    As of today I have decided to try reducing my sulfur intake again as the last few weeks it has been higher (As I thought it would be helping my body remove toxins from die off), but after the sulfur smelling gas I presume it's not quite working that way.

    I was also taking some sulfur increasings supplements like turmeric, ALA, NAC which I'm going to stop.

    I am taking molybdenum, most days was 150mcg-300mcg however I've not discovered doses of upto 1000-1500mcg are considered safe, so might try going higher. The last coupe lof days I was taking methylfolate and methylcobalamin but haven't today, as figured I may be best to hold fire on them until I get the order correct.

    I could keep explaining forever and I'm sure I've just scratched the surface but I hope someone might be able to give me some direction/suggestions based on that, especially around the 23+Me results. I really feel like methylation issues could explain my years of fatigue, depression, anxiety, irritability etc.
    [​IMG]
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.
  2. canyouhearmeaya

    canyouhearmeaya

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    Also another thing worth mentioning: another reason I believe the gut issues to be a big part of this is, back in February I did a 'parasite cleanse' (I had no reason to suspect parasites specifically, someone just told me it was worth doing.. in hindsight I realise that was pretty poor vague advice.)

    I took cloves, back walnut and wormwood, also uses pumpkin seeds and raw honey. Suffice to say, I dosed it all way too high, and over a period of 10 days built up (I can't remember exactly how much.. but if I recall it was quite a few grams of each of the cloves, blacknut and wormwood a day by the end.)

    This made me very bad for months. In hindsight I realise this herbs dont just attack parasites ,but candida and other gut issues as well. I presume I must have floooded my body with toxins, as it left me feeling completely emotionally numb, exhausted, really bad brain fog, just lifeless!!

    At the time I had no idea what was going on and thought I might have caused myself permanent damage, it would seem now that I had seriously flooded my body with toxins and my body/liver couldn't expel them, at that time I was using no kind of supplements/vitamins etc to support those pathways at all (I hadn't done the 23+me test etc)
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.
  3. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I think that 'die off' may often be mistakenly applied to worsening of symptoms due to other functions of the antimicrobial treatment. Back in the early stages of my ME, when I had type IV food sensitivity and didn't know what caused it, I tried anticandida treatments. I experienced worsening of my symptoms, which I assumed to be die-off. However, despite continued treatment, it never changed in severity. Logically, the symptoms should decline as the fungus levels drop. Since they didn't drop, I felt it was more likely a reaction to the treatments (I forget which ones). Another possibility is that the treatments disturbed the microbiome in a way that caused symptoms, without releasing significant toxins. A quick googling showed: https://scdlifestyle.com/2012/06/5-die-off-myths-everyone-needs-to-know-about/ I'm not claiming that the website is proven truth, but it does confirm my feelings that not all worsening of symptoms, even from antimicrobial treatments, is due to die-off toxins.

    I suggest that you don't get too focused on medical theories that are popularized in health magazines but aren't proven to be significant factors (methylation, candida, etc). Instead, keep track of which specific foods, drugs, activities, times of day, etc, reliably affect your symptoms. When you have that information, you can decide whether they fit any theories with reasonable confidence.

    If you have liver issues, that might be something that a doctor can actually diagnose and treat effectively. If you haven't had adequate testing done for liver function, that would probably be a good first step.
     
  4. Hufsamor

    Hufsamor Senior Member

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    I would really recommend you to get help to look at your genes.

    Before i did that, i had made myself even more sick than ever, trying freddds protocol, very very green and healthy living and other things.

    My genes showed I don't detox very well, and those super healthy thing just made my body even worse.

    I took appointments on pc. Lots of thing improved. ( no more energy, tho)
    It is almost impossible to figure out all of this by yourself.

    I got names on several doctors from someone on this forum.
     
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  5. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    I'm with @Wishful here in suspecting that 'die off' may be mistakenly applied to just a worsening of symptoms around having dysbiosis.

    One suggestion I would make here is to have an ENA blood test done if you haven't already as these symptoms can fit for Scleroderma
     
  6. jason30

    jason30 Senior Member

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    There is a lot going on but I believe you are on the right track. Try to prevent different things at the same time. Everything affects each other, when you up one thing then another thing decreases.

    Few things:
    • Molybdenum depletes magnesium quickly
    • Molybdenum increases uric acid formation
    • ALA is a heavy metal chelator. When you have heavy metals in your body then taking ALA not in a protocol (because of his half-life) is not adviced.
    • Whole food triggers symptoms? This could be due oxalates.
    In general, first start with the gut and do liver support. Are you familiar with phase 1, 2 and 3 of the detox? Don't forget supporting the bile flow and kidneys, and do sauna and lymphatic drainage to support it more.

    When I read your story, then it's almost a copy of mine :) The symptoms fatigue, mood, irritability, brain fog, mild depression and anxiety are mostly coming from my liver and glutamate plays a part as well (but mostly the trigger are the things which are going on in the gut).
    In terms of the symptoms relating to the liver, I get the most benefit from TMG at this moment.
    Don't forget, your environment can be a trigger as well (molds etc).

    All the best!
     
    scienceshea likes this.
  7. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    This die-off reaction is very common with ME/CFS and in people with SIBO/dysbiosis in general. I have read dozens of posts here from others that say the exact same thing.

    Functional medicine doctors that specialize in treating dysbiosis know this because they see it all the time. Allison Seibecker from SIBO.com, specializes in treating SIBO and talks about patients experiencing bacterial die-off from herbal anti-biotics all the time.

    I experienced that for years, every time I took anti-bacterial herbs that killed off the bacteria in my gut.

    One of the many reasons I know it's die-off from killing pathogenic bacteria in my gut is from a course of Rifaximin I took.

    Rifaximin is an antibiotic that only works in the small intestine and is not absorbed into the body. Before I took the Rifaximin, I had very bad bacterial die-off symptoms from very, very tiny doses of anti-bacterial herbs.

    After the Rifaximin significantly lowered the bacterial overgrowth in my gut. I could take MUCH higher doses of anti-biotic herbs with very little to no die-off symptoms.

    The toxins that cause the bacterial die-off I get from anti-biotic herbs, I firmly believe, are the root cause of my ME/CFS. After treating dysbiosis for over a year with only low doses of anti-antibiotic herbs. My quality of life has improved tremendously AND it continues to improve!!:):thumbsup:

    I have gone from a 2.5 on the bell scale to a 5.5 in a year and half, on very low doses of anti-biotic herbs. I have just started to get up to a therapeutic dose in the last couple of weeks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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  8. jason30

    jason30 Senior Member

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    Interesting Jim! I wonder if you only used the antibiotic herbs for treating your dysbiosis (after Rifaximin)?
     
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  9. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Yes I am only using antibiotic herbs since I took the Rifaximin. I am also using many supplements to protect my mitochondria from the toxins from the bacterial die-off .

    The mitochondrial dysfunction from the bacterial toxins, seems to be causing many or most of my symptoms.
     
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  10. jason30

    jason30 Senior Member

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    Thanks Jim, I was wondering because I also have dysbioses.
    Great to read that your quality of life improved a lot!
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.
  11. Melisnl

    Melisnl

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    Mat i ASK what you are using to support giur mitochondria?
     
    jason30 likes this.
  12. Mary

    Mary Moderator

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    Hi @canyouhearmeaya - I used to have severe problems with detoxing - any time I took anything that was purported to have "cleansing" properties, no matter how benign (e.g., apple cider vinegar), I would get a sick fluish feeling - my digestion would be off, my brain would get fuzzy, I'd get very tired, it was like clockwork. When I stopped the offending food or supplement, the symptoms went away. I had a 20 minutes far infrared sauna treatment once, 20 minutes, and had detox symptoms for 3 days. This also happened with a foot bath treatment that I thought might be nonsense, but I reacted very strongly to that as well.

    Then I basically stumbled across 3 supplements which apparently took care of my detoxing issues. I started taking glycine for sleep and the first night I took it, it hit me very had. I slept well (more like felt like I had been knocked out) and the next morning I felt like I had been hit by a truck. Very very woozy, out of it, very tired, I got lost driving to my sister's house and had to call her for directions. I was pretty sure it was from mercury, all the mental symptoms.

    But muscle testing indicated it was good for me, albeit in much smaller doses. I had probably taken 2000 - 3000 mg. so I backed way down on the dose and very gradually over several months I increased the dose (because it did help with sleep) and eventually I stopped reacting badly to it altogether.

    Around the same time I started taking inositol for sleep and had a similar reaction, although much milder, but I recognized the symptoms. And it helped noticeably with sleep so I went up gradually on it and eventually stopped reacting at all.

    And the same thing happened with glutamine (part of a branched chain amino acid complex I was taking) - the symptoms were so familiar, and the glutamine was helping my energy, so did the same thing, and finally stopped reacting badly to it.

    And after all this, I noticed after awhile that I was no longer having detox reactions to all the other things I used to, like apple cider vinegar, or cayenne, there were so many things, and each time I'd research and find out that whatever it was, was good for cleansing.

    So then I found this article which talks about phase II liver detoxification, and mentions these 3 supplements (as well as several others) as being needed for phase II liver detoxification. Once in a blue moon now I'll get a detox reaction from something (e.g., a new floor in my bathroom) but it's rare.

    So if you try any of these things, I'd urge you to try one at a time, and go slow. If you do react to them, however, it might an indication that it's actually something you need. It sounds like your liver may get overwhelmed with toxins (as mine did) and these things might help support the detox pathways.

    Having B12 at the top of the range can be an indication that you're not metabolizing it properly - that it's not getting into the cells or being used by the cells properly. I have to take very high doses of B12 to get what I need, and this is very common with ME/CFS. Many of us have defects in our B12 metabolism. but like with everything, we're all different, so again, if you're going to supplement, start low and go slow.

    And also, @jason30 is right - ALA is a heavy metal chelator and needs to be used very carefully (preferably in a well-designed protocol) when dealing with heavy metals.
     
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  13. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    The supplement that is helping the most is high dose BCAA's, at 13-15 grams a day. I also take Coq10, Alpha Lipoic acid and B-1. All of which improve mitochondrial function.
     
  14. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    @ljimbo423 do you take the BCAA in divided doses?
     
  15. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Yes I do. I take 11 grams in the morning and 2-4 grams in the early afternoon, on an empty stomach. At least 2 hours after a meal or at least 30 minutes before a meal.

    BCAA's compete with other amino acids in food. So it's best to take them on an empty stomach.
     
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