phosphatidyl-choline or serine raise acetylcholine?

[drob31]

What did you start at and how much/how often did you increase if you don't mind me asking.



I'm not sure that I fit into the category of "adrenal fatigue". My cortisol is sky high in the morning, crashes mid-morning, then begins to rise again right before bed time. It's more like "adrenal roller coaster."

Adrenal fatigue doesn't exist, technically. If it did, there would be no such thing as cushings disease. Your adrenal's are just doing what they're told by your brain (pituitary / hypothalamus / PVN). But if we understand that and still refer to adrenal fatigue as HPA axis dysfunction then it's all basically the same thing. Your cortisol being too high and too low was just like mine about 6 months ago. Then it went all high, very high. Taking thyroid hormone (wrong choice, learning), made it go too high as well.

The question is why is it always off? Gut issue? Liver issue? Virus/cytokines? Why is your body so off... it's not just confused, something is throwing it off. Allot of stress can surely cause it to become out of whack, but when it stays that way, I believe there is either an underlying cause, or possibly it's genetic.

 

[SwanRonson]

Factor in things like dietary fat and cholesterol intake, sleep, zinc, DHEA, etc.

I got a positive pyroluria test a couple of months ago, so zinc deficiency could play a role with me. I take zinc each day but haven't pursued it further because it seems a little bit voodoo to me when you can't really ever get an accurate reading on zinc levels. From what I've read it's almost impossible to test for accurately. I'm just sticking with 24mg a day as it seems to be a safe level and take extra after sexual activity to make up for loss.

The trick is to take it during the time your cortisol peaks, or when you feel that it's higher.

I'd be interested to hear your success with the bed time dosage.

I really believe some of genes for glucortiroid resistance are preventing people with "AF" from recalibrating properly.

Have any SNP's been identified that relate to that?

Adrenal fatigue doesn't exist, technically.

Not to be too cynical, but I haven't found any "adrenal fatigue" information yet from anyone that isn't trying to sell me supplements.

 

[minkeygirl]

@SwanRonson I'm trying to remember. I think I got some 100 mgs tablets so I could split them. So I started at 50 them maybe every 4 or 5 days upped it by 50. Stayed at 250 mgs for awhile. Then went to 500. I had zero problems with doing it that way.

I did just buy some 500 mgs capsules. It'll be interesting to see if I have a problem with these or not.

 

[Little Bluestem]

From the graph, it starts to rise around 8pm and hits almost 13 by 7am,

At 7 am it might be on it's way back down from an even higher level.

I was thinking, like you, that it would make sense to take it at bed time.

Actually, I was thinking of you taking it when you wake up in the wee hours of the morning, but that might be too late.

 

[sregan]

I have high morning cortisol (high 12's around 7am) and then a big crash down to the 2.0 range by lunch time. It stays low all day and then begins to rise around 9pm. I consistently wake up around 3:30-4:00am, so that's what I'm trying to solve. I was a little worried about taking it in the morning since I know it lowers cortisol very effectively. I didn't want to push things too far down.

I wouldn't take anything to lower cortisol if I were you or you are gonna have nothing at the end of the day. Not sure what to do about your morning response. Maybe stress reduction or a non cortisol reducing agent. You might need something to preserve your cortisol throughout the day like Licorice or PABA.

 

[sregan]

I have high morning cortisol (high 12's around 7am) and then a big crash down to the 2.0 range by lunch time. It stays low all day and then begins to rise around 9pm. I consistently wake up around 3:30-4:00am, so that's what I'm trying to solve. I was a little worried about taking it in the morning since I know it lowers cortisol very effectively. I didn't want to push things too far down.

I wouldn't take anything to lower cortisol if I were you or you are gonna have nothing at the end of the day. Not sure what to do about your morning response. Maybe stress reduction or a non cortisol reducing agent. You might need something to preserve your cortisol throughout the day like Licorice or PABA.

Also have you tried Lecthin for Choline? It's what is recommened in the protocol and cheaper than PC.

 

[SwanRonson]

Actually, I was thinking of you taking it when you wake up in the wee hours of the morning, but that might be too late.

Well for those interested I started it yesterday with 1 seriphos capsule at breakfast and 1 at lunch. I definitely feel the familiar acetylcholine buzz about an hour after taking it each time. It's not unbearable (or even unpleasant) like it is with the B5, but it's definitely the same thing. That tells me that with my body chemistry, taking it before bed might be a bad idea.

But, also very interesting, is that by the end of the day both yesterday and today I feel wonderful. It started around 5pm yesterday and tonight also. The brain fog is still there, but it's much reduced and I have a lot more energy.

Not sure what all of that means yet. Just interesting results.

 

[SwanRonson]

You might need something to preserve your cortisol throughout the day like Licorice or PABA.

One step ahead of you. I actually started taking Licorice Root this morning along with the Seriphos. Hard to say if it helped or not. I'm going to have to try moving the Seriphos around a bit to experiment.

 

[sregan]

One step ahead of you. I actually started taking Licorice Root this morning along with the Seriphos. Hard to say if it helped or not. I'm going to have to try moving the Seriphos around a bit to experiment.

One thing about cortisol is that there are few if any substances that you can take that will tell your body to produce cortisol (I read once 5HTP might) which is why people with low C need to supplement that directly (Cortef). Things like licorice and PABA will slow down your body's metabolism of cortisol preserving what you have for a longer period. I've had some interesting results with licorice. The best was the extract but licorice had some after/side effects for me. The combination of PABA and Pantethine worked best for me to extend cortisol. I found that out when taking B-Right I felt a lot better. Then researched and isolated PABA as the probable entity with Pantethine playing a supportive role.

 

[SwanRonson]

So, last night I fell asleep around 11pm and woke up around 3am. I took half a capsule of Seriphos immediately (and ate half an orange) as a test, since I figured my night of sleep was screwed anyway at that point. After about 30 minutes I started to feel some energy in my head and a little in my body. I never got back to sleep, but I don't think I would have even without the Seriphos.

I had not taken any Seriphos at all yesterday as a test to see if I felt good again late in the afternoon without it. I did feel better late in the day, but not as good as with the Seriphos.

This stuff is doing something. I just don't know what at this point.

 

[drob31]

Are you sure your nighttime levels are high? Maybe they are low and it's adrenalin that's keeping you awake and not cortisol.

Have you though about trying a morning dose such as 15 minutes before break on an empty stomach, 1-2 caps?


Some people have to take 8-10 caps to knock their cortisol down if it's really high, I've heard anecdotally and zero science to support this claim.

The thing about cortisol levels is that they can fluxate. Infact, one of my saliva test results was perfectly normal and optimal. 2 others were really high. Taking thyroid hormone (t3) made it go even higher (which I'm off now).

 

[SwanRonson]

Are you sure your nighttime levels are high? Maybe they are low and it's adrenalin that's keeping you awake and not cortisol.

That's very possible. I haven't done a night time saliva test to check. It's about time to do one. I'm basing the theory that night levels are high on the fact that the morning sample was high, but that's an assumption on my part with nothing to back it up.

The thing about cortisol levels is that they can fluxate. Infact, one of my saliva test results was perfectly normal and optimal. 2 others were really high. Taking thyroid hormone (t3) made it go even higher (which I'm off now).

How far apart were the tests done?

 

[drob31]

My tests are about 2-3 months apart. I have 3, and I'll be getting another done soon.

It's hard to say what happens at night. The odds are it's high cortisol, but never hurts to check.

 

[SwanRonson]

Which lab do you use if you don't mind me asking.

 

[drob31]

I used ZRT once (through canaryclub), diagnostechs once, and I did DUTCH urine testing through precision analystics which does a total UFC, cortisol, metabolized/unmetbolized cortisol/cortizone. My UFC was above reference range. So 2 saliva tests, 1 urine.

I keep reading negative things about diagnostechs, but they "seemed" to be accurate.

Chris Kresser recommends biotech saliva testing but you have to go through a doctor to get it.

 

[SwanRonson]

I think kresser is a smart guy with a lot of good stuff to say. But reading his article on methylfolate is part of why my health is so bad right now. It was a cart Blanche recommendation for taking methylfolate with no discussion of cofactors or methylation side effects. My folate blood test was low so I took his advice and two weeks later I was all screwed up in methyl trap. I take his recommendations with a grain of salt now. Just my two cents.

 

[SwanRonson]

For those interested, the last few days of Seriphos have been interesting. I've found that it does indeed have adaptogenic qualities. If I take 1 capsule (1000mg) with breakfast, I can feel the energy return about an hour afterwards. I take another one at lunch and have a similar experience.

But, for the last 4 days the sleep has been the most interesting part. I wake up at 3am each night (fairly typical high night time cortisol pattern). I get up and take a 1/2 of a Seriphos capsule and drink some chamomile tea and I'm back to sleep within about 30 minutes. This has been the best week of sleep i've had in months so far.

So, taking it during the day vs. at night seems to have opposite effects. It's not just a straight cortisol suppresent evidently.

 

[drob31]

I think your reaction can be explained.

Your cortisol is high in the morning, and knocking it down will give you more energy since high cortisol will cause cellular resistance to other hormones (more importantly thyroid hormone). So when you knock it down, it's likely the thyroid hormone is probably being accessed by the cell versus being resisted.

At night your cortisol is high as well, and by knocking it down where it should be you are encouraging sleep.

High cortisol for me causes day time fatigue and nighttime energy. Lowering it would reverse either one, at least in my experience.

 

[SwanRonson]

I think your reaction can be explained.

Makes a lot of sense. Perhaps over time, my body will get the message and start doing this on it's own.

 

[drob31]

The way that makes sense to me, is that:

#1. Cortisol levels are supposed to be high in the morning but they are too high, causing symptoms.

#2. Cortisol is supposed to be low at night, however levels have dropped much lower than in the morning, so paradoxically you don't have symptoms, but instead too much energy--this is what you need during the day.