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Petition: That the ME Association leave the CMRC

arewenearlythereyet

Senior Member
Messages
1,478
Fair enough…...

If you are a member of the MEA you will know that we are regularly talking to our members about the CMRC and our membership of the Board

We take note of and very much welcome comments from our members on this issue - but I suspect that you are not a member of the MEA!

CS
perhaps when the NICE petition is over, the MEA should take a poll of its members as to whether it should remain or not? At least then you can "have a mandate" to coin a phrase to continue with the CMRC?

I know as a member of MEA I would welcome such a poll and would respect the outcome provided a balanced view for and against was put forward.
 

Demepivo

Dolores Abernathy
Messages
411
@charles shepherd Everybody in this group appreciates the work you do for PWME.

Problem is Stephen Holgate does his best not showing any interest in the latest scientific research from around the world. The impression is that he is a harmless old duffer who isn't going to question how the MRC or NIHR spend their limited ME funds on variations of CBT/GET/PACE eg FITNET, GETSET

He seems to regard Esther Crawley as his favourite niece; "wonderful researcher"

As James Coyne put it this week, the PACE team is guilty of scientific inbreeding. Is the CMRC too?
 
Last edited:

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
It wouldn't be a fair poll, MEA literature will have been selling the CMRC as something positive and success since it began. It's only those who follow these things more carefully on independent forums etc who would be seeing all sides.

If I'd been ill a couple of years, was still in work and was a member of charities for the benefits and pacing information, not because I was a ' supporter" of every action and stance, and knew little about the history of each individual involved in ME politics and how things had ground out over the years was told basically the arguments for posted above, I'd think it was quite reasonable.

Phoenix rising community are pretty informed and about 50% were very up for giving the CMRC a fair try at the start. What percentage would think it was a good thing now?
 

lilpink

Senior Member
Messages
988
Location
UK
We take note of and very much welcome comments from our members on this issue - but I suspect that you are not a member of the MEA!

I was a long term (27 year long) member until a month ago. I gave a very detailed verbal explanation of why I was leaving to your receptionist when I rang to cancel my membership. I think you can imagine the main thrust of my concern? I know others who have left for the same reason(s) . I had already spoken to your receptionist on the matter a year earlier, so clearly whilst you were 'talking' to me in the literal sense (by phone at your head office) you weren't engaging at all. In fact whereas the more recent conversation was more gracious, the earlier conversation was very patronising and quite rude on the part of your representative. It was (wildly paraphrased as I didn't make a contemporaneous note) 'you're wrong, we're right and we're not going to listen to you', and delivered in a most officious tone. It was a very 'like it or lump it' conversation. Very badly done indeed.

Given the quote I've copied above is quite sarcastic and presumptuous I assume your head office reps take their lead from you? You are clearly implying that you only listen to members and that you can wash your hands of my opinion in this matter as you presume I am not member whilst not knowing whether or not that is the case. Well now you know. You have given yourself permission to ignore me. That I was equally ignored whilst I was a member should be noted here (thanks to PR for the opportunity).
 

arewenearlythereyet

Senior Member
Messages
1,478
It wouldn't be a fair poll, MEA literature will have been selling the CMRC as something positive and success since it began. It's only those who follow these things more carefully on independent forums etc who would be seeing all sides.

If I'd been ill a couple of years, was still in work and was a member of charities for the benefits and pacing information, not because I was a ' supporter" of every action and stance, and knew little about the history of each individual involved in ME politics and how things had ground out over the years was told basically the arguments for posted above, I'd think it was quite reasonable.

Phoenix rising community are pretty informed and about 50% were very up for giving the CMRC a fair try at the start. What percentage would think it was a good thing now?

On the basis of the argument above you would never do any poll? Sounds like "lets not do a poll because it might not give the answer I like"

I think the MEA should represent the wishes of the majority of its members. I would like to know what those wishes are.

I can then make an informed choice about the value of being a member and whether it represents my opinion or not.

To say that opinion polls are not worth having because a lot of people who are mild\moderate or haven't had the disease very long don't have the "right" opinion a little undemocratic (to say the least). It is also insulting the intelligence of a great many people.

Personally I think the MEA should leave the CMRC. I am mild moderate and only been ill 5 years....but I guess that makes my opinion much less important than others who have a more informed opinion?
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
We will continue to review our position on the Board of the CMRC - and this will include taking careful note of what MEA members are saying about our involvement with the CMRC.

It seems to me pointless to say this if the MEA doesn't inform members fully and openly about the problems with the CMRC.

The fact that the CMRC stands by a member (Crawley) who describes critics of her work as anti-science, who denigrates ME sufferers and who does dangerously poor quality research.

The fact that it has not condemned the PACE trial as unscientific and the published results of it as unsound,

The fact that it includes on its board members who actively promote the BPS model of ME and thinks it appropriate for someone who doesn't seem to understand what ME is (Crawley) to set up and oversee a major biobank and data collection project (MEGA).

The fact that its chairman Steven Holgate does not seem to understand what ME is and seems unwilling to learn or understand that he is supporting bad research.

I had no idea about any of this until I joined PR. In an MEA vote, I would probably have supported membership of the CMRC if only the positive side of the story were told in the way you have in this thread.

If you are to hold any kind of consultation with members about membership please allow someone to put the case against as fully and openly as the case for membership.

I realise I probably should be saying this to the MEA, rather than here. I shall endeavour to put together an appropriate e-mail later today.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
@charles shepherd Everybody in this group appreciates the work you do for PWME.

Problem is Stephen Holgate does his best not showing any interest in the latest scientific research from around the world. The impression is that he is a harmless old duffer who isn't going to question how the MRC or NIHR spend their limited ME funds on variations of CBT/GET/PACE eg FITNET, GETSET

He seems to regard Esther Crawley as his favourite niece; "wonderful researcher"

As James Coyne put it this week, the PACE team is guilty of scientific inbreeding. Is the CMRC too?

Thanks for the very kind comments about my personal input!

But have you actually ever met and spoken to Stephen Holgate?

I do so on a fairly regular basis and I can assure you that he is genuinely interested in what is happening to ME/CFS research - not just here in the UK

CS
 

thegodofpleasure

Player in a Greek Tragedy
Messages
207
Location
Matlock, Derbyshire, Uk
But have you actually ever met and spoken to Stephen Holgate?

I do so on a fairly regular basis and I can assure you that he is genuinely interested in what is happening to ME/CFS research - not just here in the UK

CS

That may be so, but he does a very good job of not demonstrating it.
His actions speak louder than his words and so, to seasoned observers, he comes across as a quisling.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
On the basis of the argument above you would never do any poll? Sounds like "lets not do a poll because it might not give the answer I like"
When the MEA has a strong idea about what they think is the best outcome for a poll, they tend to sell it quite heavily in the process of describing the poll. This happened recently with a poll about treatments not researched in ME patients - they heavily stressed that these treatments are unproven and not recommended, while making no allowance for treatments for ME symptoms which are well-proven in other groups.

I was impressed by their failure to persuade those responding to the poll, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was dominated by well-informed forum members. A private polling of MEA members would be much more at risk of being influenced by a one-sided pitch. And since MEA has shown a great willingness to make such a pitch in the past, I wouldn't trust them to give a balanced background of the situation.
 

arewenearlythereyet

Senior Member
Messages
1,478
When the MEA has a strong idea about what they think is the best outcome for a poll, they tend to sell it quite heavily in the process of describing the poll. This happened recently with a poll about treatments not researched in ME patients - they heavily stressed that these treatments are unproven and not recommended, while making no allowance for treatments for ME symptoms which are well-proven in other groups.

I was impressed by their failure to persuade those responding to the poll, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was dominated by well-informed forum members. A private polling of MEA members would be much more at risk of being influenced by a one-sided pitch. And since MEA has shown a great willingness to make such a pitch in the past, I wouldn't trust them to give a balanced background of the situation.
Yes it would need to be a properly debated pitch for and against no doubt about that. But I think any organisation stating that they are representing the views of their members should transparently canvass the wishes of the members that are contributing to the charity. Otherwise they can't reliably say that they are properly consulting. THe reliability of the debate is separate to the principle of whether they should poll or not.

As for rigging the result...well even the biggest and seemingly democratic polls can be tampered with....equally they can also topple some pre-conceived ideas if the debate is compelling enough. Its always dangerous to assume a result before its happened.
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
But have you actually ever met and spoken to Stephen Holgate?

I do so on a fairly regular basis and I can assure you that he is genuinely interested in what is happening to ME/CFS research - not just here in the UK

If that is the case it is even more confusing that Holgate should support Crawley's unscientific research and the PACE trial publicly and without question as he has done, and try to shut down David Tuller's contact with the CMRC, and support Crawley calling critics anti-science. In so many ways he demonstrates the opposite of what you say here.

As for him being genuinely interested, I tried to get some sort of clarity from him by e-mailing him some time ago. He did not acknowledge or reply to my e-mail.
Copied here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...r-to-professor-holgate-re-cmrc-and-mega.2045/
 

AndyPR

Senior Member
Messages
2,516
Location
Guiding the lifeboats to safer waters.
I am a member of the MEA and fully support and am grateful for almost everything it does, and @charles shepherd does, on our behalf.

I am, as I outlined above, saddened and disturbed that it continues to be involved in the CMRC.
Words taken out of my mouth, or off my keyboard at least - this is exactly my position as well.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
When the MEA has a strong idea about what they think is the best outcome for a poll, they tend to sell it quite heavily in the process of describing the poll. This happened recently with a poll about treatments not researched in ME patients - they heavily stressed that these treatments are unproven and not recommended, while making no allowance for treatments for ME symptoms which are well-proven in other groups.

I was impressed by their failure to persuade those responding to the poll, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was dominated by well-informed forum members. A private polling of MEA members would be much more at risk of being influenced by a one-sided pitch. And since MEA has shown a great willingness to make such a pitch in the past, I wouldn't trust them to give a balanced background of the situation.

Did you actually read the background information to this poll?

It was a genuine attempt to find out whether people with ME/CFS felt that doctors should be able to prescribe speculative and unproven treatments

There was no hidden agenda

CS

MEA Quick Survey for June – Why are we asking about experimental and speculative drug treatments?

23409_1pills_460x265.jpg
Despite some significant research advances in our understanding of the underlying disease process in ME/CFS, doctors still do not have a safe and effective form of drug treatment for this illness.

However, there are a number of drugs which are being (or have been) assessed in clinical trials.

Some of these drugs are creating a great deal of interest – antiviral treatment with valganciclovir and the use of rituximab and cyclophosphamide in particular.

Not surprisingly, this means that we are frequently dealing with questions about new forms of drug treatment and why most UK doctors refuse to even consider prescribing one of these potentially disease modifying drugs – even if the patient is willing to take responsibility for any adverse effects that may occur.

There are several reasons why doctors refuse to prescribe experimental or speculative forms of treatment:

First is that all drugs have to be assessed in large scale clinical trials to make sure that they are both safe and effective before they are given what is called a product license for use in a specific condition such as ME/CFS, along with an approval or recommendation from NICE.

In the case of ME/CFS, whilst there is some evidence of benefit from clinical trials in relation to antiviral drugs and with rituximab, we don’t yet have enough consistent evidence on safety and efficacy from several high quality clinical trials carried out by independent research groups to meet this requirement.

Second is the fact that in the absence of this type of evidence from clinical trials, the NICE guideline on ME/CFS does not recommend the use of antiviral drugs or drugs that affect the immune system such as rituximab or cyclophosphamide.

Third is that doctors could end up being sued for negligence if anything went wrong with the use of a drug that has not been given this form of official approval.

My personal view is that in the case of rituximab, where the Norwegian research group have made it very clear that this drug should not be prescribed outside a clinical trial in our current state of knowledge, it would be highly irresponsible to do so.

The phase 3 clinical trial in Norway will finish in September. Will know the results in 2018. If rituximab is shown to be safe and effective, we hope that a large scale clinical trial can then be set up here in the UK.

A considerable amount of money has already been raised by Invest in ME and the MEA Ramsay Research Fund has £60,000 set aside to help fund a UK clinical trial if it is required. However, the cost of a large scale multi-centre clinical trial, which would be needed to obtain the necessary approval for ME/CFS, would be considerable in view of the cost of the drug and the way it has to be administered in hospital.

So, even if all goes to plan and a phase 3 UK clinical trial takes place, it seems that it will take around 5 years before there is any likelihood of this drug being approved for NHS treatment for what could be a sub-group of people with ME/CFS.

However, there are other situations where I think a more flexible approach should apply.

For example, in the case of antiviral drugs such as valganciclovir, where there is some evidence of benefit from clinical trials, and from physicians in America who use this drug on selective cases, I take the view that infectious diseases specialists who are familiar with the use of this type of potentially toxic antiviral medication should be able to do so in carefully selected patients with ME/CFS where there is both clinical and virological/immunological evidence to support a decision to do so.

So this is why we would like to assess patient opinion on the important issue as to whether there are situations where a more flexible approach to the use of experimental forms of treatment should be adopted here in the UK.

You can vote on this poll on the home page on the MEA website.

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, MEA

Further Information:

The Treatment section of the 2017 edition of MEA purple booklet has a detailed summary of all clinical trials relating to drugs aimed at the underlying disease process in ME/CFS:

Section on antiviral treatment from MEA purple booklet

7.4.6 Antiviral drugs

Although viral infections commonly trigger ME/CFS, there is very little scientific evidence to indicate that a persisting viral infection is involved in perpetuating ME/CFS. The first antiviral drug to be assessed in a clinical trial was acyclovir (Straus et al 1988a). No benefits were found. Intravenous ganciclovir was found to be of benefit in a subset of patients with abnormal aberrant T-waves in a small pilot trial (Lerner et al 1997).

Valganciclovir (VGCV), which is active against human herpes virus type-6 infection, is currently being assessed in the USA following a report that it could be of benefit in ME/CFS patients with evidence of persisting EBV infection (Kogelnik et al 2006).

A more recent study investigated whether antibody titres against HHV-6 and EBV were associated with a clinical response to valganciclovir in a subset of ME/CFS patients (Watt et al 2012). Antibody titres were considered high if HHV-6 IgG was > 1:320, EBV capsid antigen IgG was > 1:640 and EBV early antigen IgG was > 1:160. Treatment with valganciclovir, independent of baseline antibody titres, was associated with self-rated improvement in physical and cognitive functioning in those who had positive HHV-6 and/or EBV serologies.

Montoya et al (2013) randomised (2:1) 30 ME/CFS patients with elevated IgG antibody titres against HHV-6 and EBV to receive valganciclovir or placebo for six months in a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Statistically significant differences between groups were observed in mental fatigue sub-scores and cognitive function. The VGCV patients experienced improvements within the first three months and maintained that benefit for the remaining nine months. In the VGCV arm, monocyte counts decreased, neutrophil counts increased and cytokines were more likely to evolve towards a Th-1 profile.

NICE does not recommend the use of antiviral treatment in ME/CFS (National Institute for Health and Care Excellence 2007b), and this has had a very negative impact on any interest here in the UK regarding a clinical trial that would aim to replicate these very interesting findings. The MEA has met with a representative from the pharmaceutical company that manufactures Valcyte (one of the brand names of VGCV) to discuss the possibility of a UK clinical trial.
 

AndyPR

Senior Member
Messages
2,516
Location
Guiding the lifeboats to safer waters.
If that is the case it is even more confusing that Holgate should support Crawley's unscientific research and the PACE trial publicly and without question as he has done, and try to shut down David Tuller's contact with the CMRC, and support Crawley calling critics anti-science. In so many ways he demonstrates the opposite of what you say here.

As for him being genuinely interested, I tried to get some sort of clarity from him by e-mailing him some time ago. He did not acknowledge or reply to my e-mail.
Copied here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...r-to-professor-holgate-re-cmrc-and-mega.2045/
My experience as well. I emailed him when the MEGA furore kicked off, got a holding reply promising a further response and then silence. Compare this to when I contacted, via email, the Centre for Infection and Immunity at Columbia and consequently had a brief but fully engaged email conversation with Ian Lipkin.
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
On the basis of the argument above you would never do any poll? Sounds like "lets not do a poll because it might not give the answer I like"

I think the MEA should represent the wishes of the majority of its members. I would like to know what those wishes are.

I can then make an informed choice about the value of being a member and whether it represents my opinion or not.

To say that opinion polls are not worth having because a lot of people who are mild\moderate or haven't had the disease very long don't have the "right" opinion a little undemocratic (to say the least). It is also insulting the intelligence of a great many people.

Personally I think the MEA should leave the CMRC. I am mild moderate and only been ill 5 years....but I guess that makes my opinion much less important than others who have a more informed opinion?


On the basis of the argument above you would never do any poll? Sounds like "lets not do a poll because it might not give the answer I like"

I think the MEA should represent the wishes of the majority of its members. I would like to know what those wishes are.

I can then make an informed choice about the value of being a member and whether it represents my opinion or not.

To say that opinion polls are not worth having because a lot of people who are mild\moderate or haven't had the disease very long don't have the "right" opinion a little undemocratic (to say the least). It is also insulting the intelligence of a great many people.

Personally I think the MEA should leave the CMRC. I am mild moderate and only been ill 5 years....but I guess that makes my opinion much less important than others who have a more informed opinion?


I don't see point in arguing amongst ourselves. I am not anti polling but am concerned about how much knowledge newly ill have and how informed of both sides they'd be to make it worthwhile. I didnt remotely suggest the mild to moderate couldn't have knowledge in the politics etc and I'm not anti democratic. I remember when I was a few years in and hadn't even joined groups - blissfully unaware of the politics, convinced the NHS would do right by us and that research must find treatments within a short time. Totally naive, No idea about the Wessely school or criteria or dilution of ME Into CF etc or that egos would come before patients or how long that could all continue. If you're already on PR you could be ill just six months and be well informed, but many aren't.