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PEM - What do physical and mental exertion have in common?

MeSci

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Marco said:
@MeSci

I'd have to dig out the refs but I did have this to hand :

"Electrocardiograph (ECG) measurement of heart RR (beat to beat) intervals (Wikipedia – Heart Rate Variability) is intended to measure the ratio between the sympathetic and parasympathetic sides of the nervous system, with the low frequency component (LFC) reflecting the sympathetic and the high frequency component (HFC) the parasympathetic system."

"As with other findings CCFS patients, as a group, showed evidence of autonomic dysfunction. (Freeman and Komaroff, 1997; Newton et al., 2007; Beaumont et al., 2012). CCFS patients had low parasympathetic function, or in other words, sympathetic dominance which reflected a sustained response from the ‘fight and flight’ side of the autonomic nervous system."

Read more: Japanese Sensory Gating Study Reveals Profound Cognitive Deficits Present in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...deficits-present-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

OK - I'm quoting myself :angel:
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This paper says:
In CFS patients HRV was only reduced during sleep.
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I've never tried checking mine while I'm asleep. :D
 
Marco

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
MeSci said:
This paper says:


I've never tried checking mine while I'm asleep. :D
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Neither have I but it can't be a good thing. I have to take myself off to bed immediately after lunch every day. Sometimes I sleep sometimes not. But every time I lie there with my heart making a regular strong thump, thump, thump which isn't pleasant.
 
voner

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
Marco said:
So we have signals that effort is causing stress but the expected reponse of increased blood flow isn't happening.
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so Marco...... respectfully,

why is the blood flow not increasing? my gross bloodflow increases when I exercise, but I suspect the microcirculation bloodflow may not be increasing and also there could be a blood volume issue that predates all this.
 
V

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
alex3619 said:
Thinking about it, low heart rate variability implies low adaptability ... it kind of plods on and ignores physiological demands and variation in demands.
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I think ours responds to some things properly, but not others. As an example, when someone raises their arms over their head, their pulse pressure should increase and their heart rate should decrease. For myself, my pulse pressure stays the same but my heart rate decreases anyhow, and it doesn't work out very well.

Similarly, we get a normal blood pressure and heart rate response to lying down, but get an abnormal response to standing up, resulting in some serious problems. So some aspects obviously work appropriately, but then other aspects fail to respond appropriately, and we get chronically yet just partially screwed up :p
 
T

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
alex3619 said:
I suspect, and its only hypothetical, that mental exertion in us is very multidimensional. Some mental efforts can wipe me out in five seconds, but on a good day I can do others for many hours. Different parts of my brain respond differently. Serious math ... seconds. Light reading ... some time. Heavy reading ... minutes. Watching boring dvds ... not long but its the boredom that gets me. Watching good dvds ... hours on a good day, twenty minutes on a poor day, and zero on a bad day. I do not write many blogs these days as the mental gymnastics are currently beyond me most of the time. However I can write posts like this.

One thing I do want to comment on. I play a lot of computer games, and have been playing them since the 80s. These days there is a lot of online gaming, some of it can be done with other people. The pace they choose to play at wipes me out in minutes. However I find I can play with another ME patient for hours online, as we both pace ourselves to our capacities. Indeed I did some online gaming with an ME friend of mine earlier today, though we did both get a bit wiped out at the end.

Physical exertion is more straightforward .. you have the energy, coordination and strength or you don't. Mental demands are much more varied and subtle.
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Good post.

DVDs have to be quite entertaining for me nowdays otherwise Im often asleep during them within 15mins.

Writing in on my thread in the treatment section in which Im trying to document something, tends to wipe me out, so I often avoid my own thread there (and head for easier threads at PR). My own thread is like writing a bit of a blog but like you, Im find doing simply replies to posts okay most of the time.

Computer games are out for me except things like Sims where one can just do whatever.

Its hard to get others who havent got this illness to understand how hard many of the mental things are for us to do esp when we can write a post such as Im doing right now. Hard thinking can get to me a lot in just a few minutes (hence things like advocacy letters become real hard).

And doing any study, is almost impossible (I rarely remember the things Im trying to learn). There was no way I could do my exams at collage.
 
MeSci

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
V

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Marco said:
perhaps I need to ask what do physical and mental activity, migraine and certain foods have in common that could trigger PEM?
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My migraines were triggered by foods containing glutamate. No idea how physical or cognitive activity would tie in.

But then again, my reactions to food are nothing at all like my PEM.
 
Marco

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
Valentijn said:
My migraines were triggered by foods containing glutamate. No idea how physical or cognitive activity would tie in.

But then again, my reactions to food are nothing at all like my PEM.
Click to expand...
Valentijn said:
My migraines were triggered by foods containing glutamate. No idea how physical or cognitive activity would tie in.

But then again, my reactions to food are nothing at all like my PEM.
Click to expand...

Activated microglia elevate levels of extracellular glutamate. Would excess dietary glutamate add to this?
 
V

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Marco said:
Activated microglia elevate levels of extracellular glutamate. Would excess dietary glutamate add to this?
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Honestly I don't see how there could be a connection. My migraines and ME/CFS have been very separate problems. I haven't had a migraine in years, having discovered (and avoided) the trigger starting long before getting ME/CFS symptoms.

I had migraines without any ME symptoms for many years, and now I have ME symptoms without any migraine symptoms.
 
Marco

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
Valentijn said:
Honestly I don't see how there could be a connection. My migraines and ME/CFS have been very separate problems. I haven't had a migraine in years, having discovered (and avoided) the trigger starting long before getting ME/CFS symptoms.

I had migraines without any ME symptoms for many years, and now I have ME symptoms without any migraine symptoms.
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No problem. I'm just following up on the suggestion on the other thread that migraine can cause PEM.
 
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