PEM, magnesium and oxidative stress..

[learner2life]

Hello.
Does anyone know how magnesium ties into pem and the recovery from it. I understand the basics.. Our mitochondria's produce atp via the cori or kreb's cycle. I try to keep my exercise somewhat aerobic in everything that I do. Elliptical machine mostly, or if I do venture off to the 5 lber's I always try to finish with a little bit of cardio in hopes that the kreb's cycle will handle the lactic acid better.
I just don't understand where the magnesium comes into it all. Is the magnesium required during the repair of the damaged cells from the exercise? Is it used during cellular respiration during exercise? Can I prepare for these dips in magnesium that i get during these pem days? Should I preload my body so to speak with magnesium if I know I am going to have alot of physical activity? I have taken 4-5 times the normal amount for me of magnesium during this pem episode and this desensitized feeling just doesn't seem to level off. Very lethargic, fatigued but mostly numb. Another unusual thing that I believe is related to low magnesium is my low pulse throughout the day and while trying to exercise. I don't think I am able to clear any of the residual lactic acid out if I can't seem to get my heart rate up above 110? I guess just not as well.

Ugh. This is discouraging. I spend all day reading this stuff and can't seem to remember any of it.. Damn.. Oh well, bear with me. I read "somewhere" that atp is recycled during our sleep. Would taking extra magnesium before I got to bed possibly help keep it from dropping? Has that helped anyone else?

O.k.. My main concern is if oxidative stress has caused mitochondria's to be damaged. Or in some cases atp may be converted to adp?? at which point the mitochondrial part of the cell (or the entire cell??) wouldn't be recycled. I am wondering how long it takes to see some progress in repairing those. I take lots of efa's and 5 gms of phosphyatydial in the form of soy lecithin everyday. Does anyone know if there is an upper limit to taking the lecitin? With regards to taking b3, is 500 mg what a person should be shooting for with other b's of course. If I assume that an impaired ability to detox possibly can keep someone from essentially getting better in the sense that the excess free radicals can interfere enough with the mitochondrial regeneration to the point that there isn't any progress made? I don't know I am really fishing here but can't quite find an answer as to why I never seem to have any energy?? Well, if anyone has anything to add it would be greatly appreciated!! Thank You.

Back to the medical insider website I suppose.. Thanks again.

 

[Tony Mach]

As far as I know, magnesium is needed for the general function of (not only) muscles. If the blood level of magnesium (of a person without ME/CFS) is low to very low, he/she will get problems with muscles, like pain, fatigue and twitchings.

My understanding is, if you have ME/CFS and a slight magnesium deficiency, supplementing magnesium will help. You might even increase the magnesium level slightly "above normal" by taking regularly magnesium (or taking bath with epsom-salt).

But unless you have a problem with your kidneys, the body should be able excrete any superfluous magnesium, in order to keep a "normal" magnesium level. So I guess "preloading" wouldn't work (or only a little bit). (And if the main problem in ME/CFS would be magnesium deficency and giving magnesium would help much, we would have heard it by now my impression is that is one of the first things doctors think of. But we didn't hear such success stories, so I guess supplementing magnesium might help a bit, but not much.)

With B-vitamins, if I didn't take them for a while, and then take some more, my urine turns kind of "neon-yellow-green", and I've read that these are the B-vitamins being excreted. So the body tries to maintain the blood level.

I would recommend changing one supplement at a time, seeing for two to four weeks what it does, then move on to the next supplement. From time to time I would remove a supplement, see if something changes. And from personal experience, I would not superdose any supplements (or make very big jumps with regards to dose).

 

[justy]

Hi, i cant get my head round all your questions but im sure aerobic exercise is not good for PWME. For a more through understanding of energy problems, magnesiums role etc i suggest you download and read Dr Myhills free E book on the subject, it is very in depth and describes how all the functions work as well as recommendations for supplements etc

http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_CFS_Book_published_by_Dr_Sarah_Myhill

All the best, Justy.

 

[Vegas]

What has helped me tremendously is chelation

I had a small amount in improvement in P.E.M. by using methylation supplements, but the chelation is apparently finally improving the core mitochondrial issues. Although I am pretty tired and my cortisol levels have taken a pretty big hit from chelation (and the post-amalgam removal mercury movement toward equilibrium), interestingly the P.E.M. is much better. Last week I took a five mile bike ride pulling my kids behind me. This was essentially the first true exercise I have done in 2 years. The following day there were no repercussions. In fact, despite the fact that I haven't really pushed myself very hard, I have no signs of P.E.M. I still have very significant fatigue from the mobilization of heavy metals, but I was pretty surprised that when I do have enough energy to do something physical, I don't pay a price for this exertion that day or the following day(s).

 

[richvank]

I had a small amount in improvement in P.E.M. by using methylation supplements, but the chelation is apparently finally improving the core mitochondrial issues. Although I am pretty tired and my cortisol levels have taken a pretty big hit from chelation (and the post-amalgam removal mercury movement toward equilibrium), interestingly the P.E.M. is much better. Last week I took a five mile bike ride pulling my kids behind me. This was essentially the first true exercise I have done in 2 years. The following day there were no repercussions. In fact, despite the fact that I haven't really pushed myself very hard, I have no signs of P.E.M. I still have very significant fatigue from the mobilization of heavy metals, but I was pretty surprised that when I do have enough energy to do something physical, I don't pay a price for this exertion that day or the following day(s).

Hi, Vegas.

This is great news! I'm very interested to learn what else needs to be done beside restoring the methylation cycle, and have suspected that heavy metal accumulation is one thing that must be treated specifically, at least in some PWCS. One of the women in our clinical study also benefited from chelation after the methylation treatment. Thanks for posting your experience.

Rich

 

[richvank]

Hi, learner2life.

In most reactions in which ATP is used to supply energy, a magnesium ion must be bound to the ATP molecule. Therefore, if intracellular magnesium becomes depleted, many reactions are affected. When ATP is converted to ADP in a reaction, the magnesium is released.

In CFS, the problem with magnesium seems to be that the intracellular level is too low, and it's difficult to raise it by putting magnesium into the body by various means. As was noted, the kidneys dump the excess into the urine, and not enough gets transported into the cells.

The transport of magnesium is not completely understood, but it is known that under normal circumstances, the concentration of magnesium inside the cells is higher than outside, in the extracellular fluid and blood. That means it must be actively pumped into the cells, which requires energy, probably in the form of ATP. So there is sort of a vicious circle here.

Another interesting point is that magnesium is used to signal the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex to increase its flow when the ratio of ATP to ADP has fallen. This feeds more acetyl CoA to the Krebs cycle, to make more ATP. So if magnesium becomes depleted inside the cells, this signalling may be inhibited. Again, sort of a vicious circle.

So far, it looks as though intracellular magnesium depletion is associated with glutathione depletion, at least based on published experiments with red blood cells. Perhaps the oxidative stress that arises when glutathione becomes depleted is lowering the rate of ATP production enough that the transport of magnesium into the cells is inhibited. The membrane ion pumps may not have enough energy supply. My hope is that
by treating the partial methylation cycle block, which has been found to raise glutathione, it will be possible to restore the magnesium levels in the cells. In our clinical study of this treatment, the patients did report significantly more energy, and I think this suggests that magnesium did come up in their cells, but we did not measure it.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[aquariusgirl]

vegas... amy yasko has found that we tend to dump lithium when we are chelating. I think she is right about this..except my experience is we dump lithium when we are excreting metals ...even just by supporting methylation.. without necessarily taking chelators.

As you probably know, lithium is involved in b12 transportation...low levels are linked to mood swings.

Just something to watch.

You're doing AC's protocol, correct? How long have u been doing it now?

 

[Vegas]

I have only you to thank for pointing me in that direction

Hi, Vegas.

This is great news! I'm very interested to learn what else needs to be done beside restoring the methylation cycle, and have suspected that heavy metal accumulation is one thing that must be treated specifically, at least in some PWCS. One of the women in our clinical study also benefited from chelation after the methylation treatment. Thanks for posting your experience.

Rich

I made significant progress with the methylation supplements and it was your protocol with some modifications that allowed me to obtain sufficient health to pursue chelation. I eventually became convinced there was something interfering with these processes when at times I "tasted" vastly improved periods of energy while doing methylation supplements, but these forays were not lasting. Getting the Hg fillings out and the subsequent symptoms I experienced was about as diagnostic as you can get for mercury toxicity. Through this experience and chelation, I have come to realize just how large a burden of mercury I have.

Lately, I've been trying to reconcile Cutler's conclusions with yours. While I understand your hypothesis refers to a broader population, there are so many parallels between what you and he have written about the pathogenesis of CFS-ME/Mercurialism, respectively, that I can't help but think many more CFS-ME folks are mercury toxic than realized.

 

[Vegas]

vegas... amy yasko has found that we tend to dump lithium when we are chelating. I think she is right about this..except my experience is we dump lithium when we are excreting metals ...even just by supporting methylation.. without necessarily taking chelators.

As you probably know, lithium is involved in b12 transportation...low levels are linked to mood swings.

Just something to watch.

You're doing AC's protocol, correct? How long have u been doing it now?

Yes, thanks, I probably need to throw in a little Lithium Orotate. Good suggestion.

Been doing AC protocol for about 2.5 months, but very aggressively. This is not for the feint of heart, but what part of recovery is?

 

[aquariusgirl]

care to share what dosages you r using?

also, are you tracking excretion or other markers at all?

In addition to the fact that people with poor methylation accumulate metals (thank you Rich, Amy, DAN movement), you might also consider that some of us may be genetically poor detoxifiers of mercury.

BOyd Haley PhD, professor emeritus of chemistry at the University of Kentucky, has a theory that ppl with a certain APOE SNP, have this issue.

See his U tube presentations for more info.

 

[anne_likes_red]

That could explain the super-low lithium result on my hair test, taken 4 months into a methylation protocol?
It's my impression too that I'd started to shift heavy metals on Methylation supplements alone - @ Rich's recommended doses. Probably from about 2 months in, in my case.

I just ordered some Lithium Orotate and will report back any improvements if I notice them

I wonder if improved methylation also acounts for my high arsenic reading?! That one's really got me stumped b/c I showed very low arsenic in a previous hair test.

Anne.

PS Vegas, great to hear of your continued progress!

vegas... amy yasko has found that we tend to dump lithium when we are chelating. I think she is right about this..except my experience is we dump lithium when we are excreting metals ...even just by supporting methylation.. without necessarily taking chelators.

As you probably know, lithium is involved in b12 transportation...low levels are linked to mood swings.

Just something to watch.

You're doing AC's protocol, correct? How long have u been doing it now?

 

[richvank]

That could explain the super-low lithium result on my hair test, taken 4 months into a methylation protocol?
It's my impression too that I'd started to shift heavy metals on Methylation supplements alone - @ Rich's recommended doses. Probably from about 2 months in, in my case.

I just ordered some Lithium Orotate and will report back any improvements if I notice them

I wonder if improved methylation also acounts for my high arsenic reading?! That one's really got me stumped b/c I showed very low arsenic in a previous hair test.

Anne.

PS Vegas, great to hear of your continued progress!

Hi, Anne.

I think that improved methylation could indeed explain a higher excretion of arsenic. The detoxication of arsenic is kind of complicated, but it involves both methylation and glutathione.

Rich

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi Rich,

Thank you

I'd be VERY happy if that explains the high arsenic reading!

Anne.

 

[Vegas]

care to share what dosages you r using?

>25 mg DMSA X 330 (total doses) A few rounds of very low dose ALA (2.5 mg)

also, are you tracking excretion or other markers at all?

>no, I don't think there is much utility in tracking this. I have pretty obvious symptoms on and off rounds, with redistribution, etc. It's quite variable too. I hit a period last week where the mobilization slowed down dramatically giving me a pretty nice break. It's back in force again this week. Read about the kinetics and equilibrium of mercury if you get a chance; it's quite fascinating.

In addition to the fact that people with poor methylation accumulate metals (thank you Rich, Amy, DAN movement), you might also consider that some of us may be genetically poor detoxifiers of mercury.BOyd Haley PhD, professor emeritus of chemistry at the University of Kentucky, has a theory that ppl with a certain APOE SNP, have this issue.

> Yes I've read Dr. Haley's work. Not only APOE-4, but there are a couple of other SNP's that might be involved...although I cannot recall these off the top of my head.

(One other obvious improvement with chelation. I am not reacting to foods any more, in the sense that I don't get fatigue or brain fog from any foods. While I don't think the intestinal permeability is completely healed, I must be close. In fact that spot just below and to the right of the navel that KDM says is universally tender in PWC's (near the cecum) is much less noticeable than before.)

 

[learner2life]

Yeah,
From what i got from most doctor's was if I ate lots of fruits and salads I really wouldn't need to detox. It sounds like I could benefit from following sometype of protocol. Personally I seem to do better having alot of fruits and vegetables in my diet bar any sulfate/sulfite problems.

Vegas, that is really fantastic. Congratulations on overcoming the pem. That's a big obstacle for me. Thanks great progress!!!

 

[harrycat]

Anne_likes_red - I'm not familiar with hair testing really.... What sort of information can it provide and how accurate do people think it is? Im assuming it gives info about about what WAS in your body x amount of time ago since hair takes a while to grow? You can see i dont really know what I'm talking about eh? Thanks in advance!

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi harrycat,

The test recommended by Andy Cutler is this one: (This is a sample.) http://www.doctorsdata.com/repository.asp?id=1270 ...so you can see what sort of information it provides.
Interpreting the test, especially as far as mercury toxicity is concerned, is more involved than just looking at the reported mercury level. The status of the useful elements and their ratios to each other is taken into account too. Really I'm no expert....my hair test interpretation book is still on it's way from the USA.

You send hair 1 inch long cut from as close to your scalp as possible.
...For me I think this represents what's gone on the previous month or two at the most. I really can't say how accurate the test is. No doubt some doctors are sceptical. I'll be interested to submit another sample in 12 months, or after I feel I've made some progress.

HTH a little?
Anne.

 

[Rockt]

Are people undergoing detox/chelation on their own or is this doctor/naturopath supervised process only?

Also, is iv chelation recommended or is an oral chelator advised?

 

[Vegas]

Are people undergoing detox/chelation on their own or is this doctor/naturopath supervised process only?

Also, is iv chelation recommended or is an oral chelator advised?

I think having a practitioner would be wise, but it is manageable without one. I wouldn't touch i/v chelation under any circumstances. If you have very significant heavy metal toxicity, intravenous chelation will pull out more metal than your body can excrete in the time that the chelator is bound to the the metal atoms. Taking a megadose of a chelator doesn't just magically clear out the body, although I suspect it is fine for those who have minimal toxicity.

 

[DANEL]

care to share what dosages you r using?

>25 mg DMSA X 330 (total doses) A few rounds of very low dose ALA (2.5 mg)

also, are you tracking excretion or other markers at all?


hi vegas, annie,

i am also on AC prtocol for heavy metals. I am up to 6.25 ALA and 12.5 DMSA I feel the DMSA must be having an impact on the lead, b/c the 1st day of this round, I had unbearable bone pain, in shins and femur. It lasted about 30 hours, no sleep, then just went away. It must have been pulling some lead from my bones.

>no, I don't think there is much utility in tracking this. I have pretty obvious symptoms on and off rounds, with redistribution, etc. It's quite variable too. I hit a period last week where the mobilization slowed down dramatically giving me a pretty nice break. It's back in force again this week. Read about the kinetics and equilibrium of mercury if you get a chance; it's quite fascinating.

In addition to the fact that people with poor methylation accumulate metals (thank you Rich, Amy, DAN movement), you might also consider that some of us may be genetically poor detoxifiers of mercury.BOyd Haley PhD, professor emeritus of chemistry at the University of Kentucky, has a theory that ppl with a certain APOE SNP, have this issue.

***I am not sure if I was a poor detoxer to begin with or if the mercury CAUSED the problem. As strange as this sound, I had lived and got sick in a moldy house. I finally moved out(still unknowing it was mold that made me very sick), 5 months later I went to a dentist to pull a tooth, bone graph on transplant tooth, the dentist "bumped" my very large amalgam tooth with the drill and cracked the filling-steady hands). I believe my immune system was so beaten and adrenals had crashed so hard from all the mold, that the amt of exposed gas from the crack in my amalgam just did me in. I had very large and old amalgams for years and I know was slowly killing me, but this experience was acute and immed side effects. many neurological, and visual problems to name a few(like breaking a thermoniter and breathing in the gas, i suppose). Maybe just by the nature I couldn't handle the mold shows I am a poor detoxer, but in reading Cutler book and all the damage the mercury can do as a enzyme inhibitor rang true for me. I feel it "broke" down the sulfation and methylation pathways. Food bothered me some in the moldy house, probably due to bacteria and fungus, yeast in my gut, but the mercury caused such extreme problems with foods. I am down to n/c salicylate and very low sulfur, which is just a few veg and organic meat, mostly lettuce, celery, green and yellow squash, that's it . no dairy, nuts, eggs, fruits, carbs. I react to everything and have lost so much weight, having a hard time with digestion, absorption and fats in particular, and malnourishment, .
so i wonder, was i born a poor detoxer or did the exposure to the mercury gas from my crack tooth and being sick and weak already cause the methylation cycle to "break"
I am hoping freddd's will help with the methylation and the chelation will rid the mercury. It was suggested to me to continue to chelate even as I start the methy protocol, as this protocol, as you said can cause re-distribution of the mercury and with chelation at the same time, I could be pulling some of that mercury out at the same time. does this made sense? should i continue to chelate at this time in your opinion?
thanks
denise

> Yes I've read Dr. Haley's work. Not only APOE-4, but there are a couple of other SNP's that might be involved...although I cannot recall these off the top of my head.

(One other obvious improvement with chelation. I am not reacting to foods any more, in the sense that I don't get fatigue or brain fog from any foods. While I don't think the intestinal permeability is completely healed, I must be close. In fact that spot just below and to the right of the navel that KDM says is universally tender in PWC's (near the cecum) is much less noticeable than before.)