The Real ME: A Stock Photography Resource for the Media
We’ve all seen them in the news stories about ME/CFS: the guy in a suit at the office, yawning; the beautiful woman sitting at her desk with her immaculate make-up and elegantly coiffed hair, hand to her head and looking slightly pained.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

panicky and having suicidal thoughts after 2 months of unsuccessfully addressing methyl trapping

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by fprefect, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i can't respond to all posts due to low mental clarity as usual.

    @Gondwanaland, thank you for this. i don't recall seeing info about b1 and b7 dealing with oxalates. i wouldn't have made the connection. i don't know how you guys deal with kidney issues on top of all this.

    @aturtles, thank you for this. it is interesting that low zinc is also associated with anxiety. i wonder if it is due to slowing down the bhmt reaction with tmg. i might try tmg instead of zinc if the panic increases further since zinc seems to indirectly make the methyl trapping worse.

    Ford
     
  2. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not able to respond properly.

    @aturtles, sorry about the late reply. i haven't been thinking clearly.

    i was/am wondering if the added potassium might be having some indirect effect on the methyl trap, and now on the oxalates also.

    i agree i seem to be low on potassium. thank you for the reassurance. i am increasingly wary of confident opinions from drs re cfs as poor methylation seems to cause all sorts of atypical responses that don't show up on mainstream tests. someone on PR had the weird experience of being low in potassium, supplementing a few grams, and then having high potassium. she had to split the doses across the day to avoid high potassium. perhaps she had kidney issues. just fyi since your dose is higher than the rda.

    i am not in a state to see a dr right now, but i am working towards getting some tests done. i expect i will get kidney tests redone.

    i appreciate your help.

    Ford
     
  3. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    @Gondwanaland, sorry about the late reply. i haven't been thinking clearly. thanks for the idea. i didn't even know acidosis might be an issue.

    i tried looking it up. i don't have any test results to check that against, other than the OAT, UAA, CSA and hair metals tests. those are within the last year. hair metals said potassium is normal, sodium was below normal and potassium was normal. also, ammonia was very low. i tried checking what low sodium might mean, but i am not thinking clearly enough to see the connection to acidosis.

    Ford
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
    I am not sure how to interpret hair mineral results. In my personal experience the ideal is to pair it with serum, red blood cell and urine results. Anyway, is you d ohave low sodium, it is impacting your adrenals, and also causing your brain fog.

    I found a link presenting a quick and simple explanation on how a complete blood count (CBC) can be used to infer a few nutritional deficiencies:
    http://www.aafp.org/afp/2000/1115/p2264.html
     
    fprefect likes this.
  5. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    based on symptoms, my magnesium level seems to be fluctuating, presumably due to oxalate dumping. the suspected methyl trapping symptoms had reduced a bit, but they seem to be increasing again, presumably due to magnesium being used differently. confusing.

    dry skin on face is reappearing. this had previously reduced after increasing b2. i am not sure what is going on with this.

    Ford
     
  6. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond.

    i think that head of cabbage yesterday had it in for me. :rolleyes: high oxalates.

    Ford
     
  7. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

    Messages:
    593
    Likes:
    474
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Ford,

    Hope you're feeling better soon. Cabbage, with the exception of sauerkraut, I think, and purple cabbage, is low in oxalates.

    Take care.
     
    fprefect likes this.
  8. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond.

    bit better than yest, but not by much. potassium seems to be lower today. i think my electrolyte levels are inconsistent.

    Ford
     
  9. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i dont know if anyone is still watching this thread after almost 1 year. anyway, thank you so much to everyone who responded. i was/am too low on mental clarity and energy to reply to everyone. sorry about that. i feel rude.

    to anyone who might come across a similar problem, the big issue for me was/is oxalates. my changes increased the oxalate dumping / oxalate production and i have got worse as a result, despite an initial improvement. if you have marginal status on nutrients that are affected by oxalate dumping, please pay attention to that before / as you do oxalate dumping. i think i have become / am becoming an endogenous oxalate producer. hopefully, this message helps someone.

    mental clarity permitting, i will try to start another thread with my new issues due to the oxalates.

    Ford
     
  10. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,265
    Likes:
    12,030
    Silicon Valley, CA
    @fprefect --

    Maybe you could list your symptoms and reactions, completely without conjecture and see what people make of them. It can be easy to get caught in a web of suppositions and conjectures that lead to other suppositions and conjectures. I said on another thread that the line between hypothesis and mythos is a thin one and we all tip over from time to time.

    @Gondwanaland and I have often joked together: "today is the week where I think copper has caused everything" or "I've learned about calcium channels this week, and now everything is about calcium". In reality, it's highly unlikely one compound or elemental supplement is to blame for all our woes: but because it's at the forefront of our minds, we see it everywhere.

    Do as we all do once in awhile and completely step back from drawing conclusions. Just phenomona. Just symptomology. Just things that are factual: "Here are the supplements I take regularly, here are the doses at which I take them; here are my symptoms I regularly experience."

    Or you can talk about oxalate issues specifically and only... but I think you might be surprised at what people can contribute when you don't draw the conclusions for them. You may find out something new.

    -J
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
    This might be challenging for you to read, but we have a long thread about oxalates.

    Personally I have been helped by a low dose B complex (rather than isolated high dose B vitamins) and lemon juice. Magnesium oxide and a low dose multimineral including copper and iron also helped. I don't take calcium myself, but many people swear by it. Oxalates and calcium lower my iron.

    Also keeping a stable daily intake of oxalates is important. A few days ago I inadvertently went too low with oxalate intake and had an awful dumping in the kidneys, which I remedied by eating cranberries (mannitol). Be aware that polyols (esp. xylitol) can become a trojan horse making you produce a ton of endogenous oxalates.

    Vitamin B6 is key to avoid endogenous oxalate formation and to get rid of dietary oxalates, but again I warn against taking isolated B vitamins.
     
  12. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    @JaimeS, thank you for your response. i have been feeling panicky and anxious/depressed.

    I guess I will post in this thread as I don't have the mental clarity to start another one right now.

    you are right. you made your point very tactfully. :) my lists of symptoms and supplements are pretty long and i dont have the mental clarity to list them all right now. i will just list the ones that seem more urgent and important for now. should i post my test results? my most recent test is a hair test from 1 year ago.

    i have been feeling significantly worse since trying to supplement copper and added magnesium about 2 months ago. unfortunately, i only thought of this a few days ago due to low mental clarity. i am very sensitive and have seen symptomatic changes from 4-8mcg copper (cupric chloride) and 0.05-0.6mg magnesium (oil). i am currently trying to reduce the copper and magnesium back to where they were before this added mess.

    currently, increasing the magnesium causes:
    • added panic and depression
    • improved mental clarity
    • decreased itchiness
    • decreased allodynia
    • increased heat in hands and feet
    • decreased shaking in hands
    • decreased fasciculations
    • decreased/increased tinnitus
    • decreased/increased sensitivity in teeth
    • less/more yellowish stools
    • decreased headache
    • decreased sound sensitivity

    increasing the copper results in:
    • decreased mental clarity
    • less restful sleep
    • less and then more sensitivity in teeth
    • decreased headache
    • decreased numbness in feet and hands
    • decreased and then increased allodynia
    • increased heat in hands and feet
    • increased fasciculations
    • increased fungal infection on feet

    i am concerned about a cramp that appeared after i decreased both the magnesium and copper. i dont know the reason for that.

    maybe that is a fairly complete list of symptoms after all. :) i hope the issue is not what i think it is. i am increasingly worried.


    @Gondwanaland, thank you for your response. i will try to respond tomorrow. my days are currently 35 hours long due to low mental clarity, by the way.


    Ford
     
  13. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,265
    Likes:
    12,030
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Is copper and magnesium all you're taking, @fprefect ?
     
    fprefect likes this.
  14. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,265
    Likes:
    12,030
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Just at a glance, you may want to ditch the copper supplement altogether and eat some foods rich in copper, such as dark chocolate (if that's something you tolerate) or dark, leafy greens... It seems like the symptoms of low copper are disappearing but the symptoms of high copper are appearing in their place the moment you try to supplement.

    You might find this interesting: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/copper#deficiency
     
    Snowdrop and fprefect like this.
  15. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,656
    Likes:
    5,020
    Do you think your depression, anxiety as well as mental clarity are better or worse than when you first wrote a year ago? I know thiis may be hard to answer especially if your mood varies and being foggy doesn't help. Been there done that!

    Take care.
     
    fprefect likes this.
  16. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    @Gondwanaland, thank you for your response. I am sorry this is long. I am not thinking clearly.

    I have seen some of that oxalate thread. it is very helpful, but i havent managed to finish it.

    I will try increasing the b complex I take after I decrease the copper. I take some of this: http://www.naturemade.com/vitamins/b-complex/b-complex-with-c#CKBT7pAP2pz4Ub0R.97

    I will also try increasing magnesium oil. I am thinking of getting this multi mineral: http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=V136-10 it has copper and iron.

    i was thinking of lemon juice and other things to improve digestion. I am concerned about the vitamin c in lemon juice. vitamin c increased tinnitus, which seems to be an oxalate dumping symptom for me. also, I wonder if I have a digestion issue. I will try the lemon juice. calcium increased my tinnitus significantly. I didn't take it with a meal though.

    recently, I have what I think is anemia when oxalate dumping increases. ie. added headache, lower mental clarity. i know you have dealt/are dealing with anemia. no fun.

    I try to keep my oxalate intake stable down to the milligram, since I seem that sensitive. your dumping episode sounds horrid. good call on the cranberries.

    I didn't know about polyols and oxalate. that is very good to know. I might have to stop an oral probiotic I started at a tiny dose.

    I tried 0.1mg p5p, but landed up with more allodynia. I am thinking of increasing fmn (active b2) since I don't recall that increasing the allodynia. I guess I could try increasing the b complex first instead of fmn.

    i will carry on with the replies tomorrow since i am too low on mental clarity and energy. besides, i am having computer issues.
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
    I can't give my opinion on commercial B complexes since the one I take is locally compounded by prescription of my nutrologist. But I have played a little with single Bvits to know how I react to each one of them.
    But I noticed this one you are taking contains vit C which chelates copper and increases my tinnitus too much as well.
    I squeeze half a small lemon in a glass of water and drink it just before breakfast. I have been doing it for a year. I think it is one of the things that helped.
    I was able to take calcium (~50mg) 3x. The first two times it cleared my brainfog and caused some sort of dumping (very smelly urine). The 3rd time it probably caused increased coagulation (heavy calves) so I never took it again.
    Yes, oxalates bind to iron and worsen anemia. I took iron bisglycinate (~4mg) for a few days and the anemia symptoms disappeared. If you have low iron I think B vits will make it worse, esp. B1 and B2. If you have low copper, B6 can make anemia worse.
    Perhaps you are deficient in glutamine? I have been taking it very low dose (50 - 100 mg) to stimulate RBC and WBC proliferation and it helps with any pain that my be related with leaky gut and low glutathione. We must be very careful with glutamine though as it can convert to glutamate and cause low B6. My diet has been high in glycine lately (chicken broth - watch out for histamines), so I think this helps to tolerate glutamine better and potentiates glutathione conjugation.
    B2 places greater demand on iron (glutamine as well probably).

    It would be interesting to check for pathogens (if you haven't already), because I think microbes use oxalates as a shield (biofilm) or produce oxalates as a byproduct inside our bodies.

    For me the worst oxalate issues happened at the same time with anemia.
     
    fprefect likes this.
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
    I didn't like it since some minerals are bound to hydroxyapatite (this composes stones in a not very common type of urolithiasis), Magnesium aspartate (I couldn't tolerate this form and found out that aspartate is a precursor in the glyoxal cycle which can result in endogenous oxalates under oxidative stress), selenomethionine gives me brainfog, manganese sulfate gives me depression, potassium chloride worsened my acidosis etc etc. The only form of magnesium I ever tolerated was magnesium oxide, but right now any magnesium gives me low iron symptoms. Iron and selenium I personally prefer to be bound to glycine, zinc causes me instant anemia.

    Of course we can't know if your reactions will be similar to mine.
     
    fprefect likes this.
  19. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    @JaimeS, sorry about the delayed reply. I was too low on mental clarity and energy to reply earlier.

    anyway, now I have to divulge my terrible secret! :p I take lots of things. I don't know how to stop them without added symptoms. my decline in the past year started after trying to decrease a b vitamin drink I take. i also tried decreasing the centrum advance, but reverted that change due to added pain. and to think that when I first started taking supplements, I vowed never to land up taking so many I didn't know what caused what. regardless, I am open to ideas. i will do whatever i have to.

    I am too low on energy to type the whole list right now. the following list should be 80% accurate. I will update it when I have more energy.

    mostly complete list:
    (ON = once nightly)
    • Cap Lyrica 75mg ON
    • Tab Amitryptiline 5mg ON
    • Calcium Supplement 600mg ON
    • Magnesium 570mg ON
    • Paracetamol 650mg ON
    • Nasonex nasal spray. 2 sprays. ON
    • Passion flower 200mg
    • Lemon balm 150mg
    • Valerian 785mg
    • Chamomile flower 100mg
    • Suntheanine 200mg
    • Melatonin 1.75mg
    • acetyl l carnitine. 1000mg
    • alpha lipoic acid. 600mg
    • co enzyme q10. 200mg
    • ribose. 8x750mg daily with meals.
    • st johns wort. 300mg
    • berocca b vitamin drink. Has 11-14 ingredients, including 400mcg folic acid.
      • taking 13/16 of 1 tablet.
      • taking other supplements equivalent to 3/16 berocca, but only 7 ingredients out of the 11-14 in berocca. idea was to decrease folic acid.
    • vit methyl b12. 52Mcg.
    • potassium gluconate. 19x135mg spread through the day.
    • vit d. 1000iu 3x.
    • 1/16 centrum advance.
    other than posting my test results, i will probably have to wait till tomorrow before replying some more since the mental clarity is significantly lower today.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  20. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    here are my test results in case anyone wants to take a look. i appreciate whatever responses i get regardless. unfortunately, the tests are from 2015 and 2014 as i havent had the energy and mental clarity to get these redone.
     

    Attached Files:

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page