Over-methylation?

[Gingergrrl]

I took niacin a few hours ago. I'm a bit calmer. Nice.

I'm taking folic acid, not methyl folate. Started with 1 mg two weeks ago and now taking 6 mg.

@Ninan, glad you are feeling better and calmer. As per the other posters, everything I have heard is that you should take methyl-folate or 5-MTHF and not folic acid. Also, if you went from 1 mg to 6 mg in two weeks, that is a huge jump (much bigger even than what I did!) I would take it much slower if you can.

 

[digi]

Thanks @ahmo and @Gingergrrl - being in Australia and not the states, I just want to cross check that the active ingredients are the same, I don't want to be over methylated then not have the correct form of niacin at hand.

 

[Ninan]

Thanks @ahmo and @Gingergrrl - being in Australia and not the states, I just want to cross check that the active ingredients are the same, I don't want to be over methylated then not have the correct form of niacin at hand.

@Helen told me that nicotinamide won't help as much as nicotic acid. Most supplements contain the former (to limit the flushing) so you have to check. The one I took was nicotic acid and it really helped! I took first 25 mg and then another 15 mg last night and I'm finally tired, as I should be now. I slept all night.

 

[Ninan]

My understanding is that folic is bad, full stop. Look in the guide I've linked in my signature to see some of Fred's comments on folic. I was shocked a few months ago to find Andrew Weil still not making any distinction, still talking about folic. I don't think anyone involved in methylation therapies thinks it's a good thing. Also, see Ben Lynch's mthfr.net for info re folic.

So much information. Are there three kinds? Folic acid, methyl folate and something else? Or is it the methyl folate that's the good stuff and does it work no matter if you have the mutations or not? Folic acid obviously does the trick for me even though I've probably been taking too much and increasing the dose too quickly.

Both @Gingergrrl and I, it seems, increased the folic and B12 doses at the same time before we got this. My doctor thought that it was the B12 that caused the reaction. The fact that I am now taking a sufficient amount of folate makes the B12 work perfectly, which in turn means that more than one or two shots a week is too much for me, at least at the moment. That would mean that I should continue taking folic acid (or change to whatever kind is best) and just take less B12. I don't trust that he knows what he's talking about though so I stopped folate too since yesterday.

Three years ago when I tried Freddds protocol I took 800 mcgs of methyl folate. It didn't do the trick, I had no effect from B12. But I should probably have taken more, right?

So: Should I change from folic acid to something else, even though I don't know if I have the mutation or not? Do I have to go slowly when lowering the folic acid dose?

 

[ahmo]

@Ninan I can't respond directly in the moment. Here are some links from Ben Lynch. I can also refer you to some of his vids, tho they're a bit more technical. You might also read the comments in his threads, they're often very illuminating.

Please see the pdf linked in my name to answer questions about order of starting B12/folate.
cheers, ahmo

http://mthfr.net/folic-acid-awareness-week-2014-want-awareness-here-you-go/2014/01/08/

http://mthfr.net/folic-acid-fortification-increase-in-mthfr-and-rise-in-autism/2012/05/11/

http://mthfr.net/l-methylfolate-methylfolate-5-mthf/2012/04/05/

 

[Ninan]

About 20 hours since I took almost 50 mg of nicotic acid. I've slept for twelve wonderful hours and felt a rise in symptoms, the crash kind. I took a small dose of B12 two hours ago and 1 mg of folic acid. Now I feel the energy coming back but I don't think it's because of the B12, that usually takes much longer. So it's either the folic acid I took (but it's just a few hours ago) or the niacin losing effect. I thought the niacin had taken the excess energy (and some of the one I need too) away all together but it seems now that it just "consumed" it for some time. Did you have the same experience, @Gingergrrl ? I'm getting a bit flushed again too. Maybe my body just can't handle folic acid.

According to @Helen I should continue taking B12 and quit folic acid. Then get metafolin and start slowly. I had no effect from 800 mcgs metafolin the last time I tried it, though, but I think I'll try that. I won't know about the genes for a few weeks but from what I understand metafolin could work better anyway?

Tricky!

 

[PeterPositive]

According to @Helen I should continue taking B12 and quit folic acid. Then get metafolin and start slowly. I had no effect from 800 mcgs metafolin the last time I tried it, though, but I think I'll try that. I won't know about the genes for a few weeks but from what I understand metafolin could work better anyway?

Depending on the state of your folate enzymes you may try folinic acid as well, maybe in tandem with metafolin.

There seem to be a unanimous consensus among methylation experts that folic acid is the least effective of the folate related supplements. People like Dr.Lynch is quite explicit, saying that "it's garbage". And it probably is, given the evidence.

Metafolin (l-methyfolate) is what you need to get your methylation cycle going. All other forms need to be transformed first.

 

[Ninan]

Depending on the state of your folate enzymes you may try folinic acid as well, maybe in tandem with metafolin.

There seem to be a unanimous consensus among methylation experts that folic acid is the least effective of the folate related supplements. People like Dr.Lynch is quite explicit, saying that "it's garbage". And it probably is, given the evidence.

Metafolin (l-methyfolate) is what you need to get your methylation cycle going. All other forms need to be transformed first.

So there is folic acid, folinic acid and metafolin? The first is the bad kind, the second is ok if you don't have mutations and metafolin is the most bio-available form for almost everyone and especially for the ones who can't process the others? Did I get it right now?

 

[PeterPositive]

So there us folic acid, folinic acid and metafolin? The first is the bad kind, the second is ok if you don't have mutations and metafolin is the most bio-available form for almost everyone and especially for the ones with who can't process the others? Did I get it right now?

Yes, I have oversimplified, but that's the gist of it.

If you take a look at this pic, you can see the number of transformations that folic acid requires to become the reduced (active) form of folate that actually spins the methylations cycle. Only 5-MTHF at the bottom does it, all the others are intermediate steps.

cheers

 

[Ninan]

Thanks @PeterPositive

 

[caledonia]

@digi I am pretty sure that when you buy Niacin, it is automatically the Nicotinamide form unless you buy Niacinamide which is different. But @caledonia can confirm that. I feel bad, I keep tagging her but I don't want to tell you something incorrect.

@digi If I'm reading the following two articles correctly, niacin is usually nicotinic acid. The body converts nicotinic acid to the amide form. Niacinamide = nicotinamide. Just two names used for the same thing. You can also buy niacin in the amide form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinamide
http://www.nowfoods.com/Quality/Quality-Notes/M092645.htm

The main thing to look for is Slow Release, Sustained Release, Flush Free or similar language. I think the main point from Ben Lynch is to use slow release to avoid the uncomfortable flushing sensation.

I've used this NOW Brand niacin successfully to stop overmethylation.
http://www.iherb.com/now-foods-niacin-sustained-release-500-mg-250-tablets/693
http://www.iherb.com/now-foods-niacin-sustained-release-500-mg-250-tablets/693
I did get flushing a couple of times even on a dose as low as 65mg. I took this to mean that I had sopped up all of my excess methyl groups and didn't need to use niacin anymore.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@caledonia For whatever reason, the Niacin that I bought was 50 mg (not extended release or non-flushing) but it worked great in my over-methylation incident and did not cause any flushing. In retrospect, I wish I had taken more but thought you were only supposed to take it once after the incident! Now I know better!

 

[Coolie]

I found this thread a little scary and I'm glad you're ok.

 

[Coolie]

@PeterPositive
Do you have a similar chart for methylcobalamin?

 

[digi]

Thanks for clearing that up @caledonia - my Methyl b12 and Methyl Folate have arrived, I plan on crushing the b12 tab up and starting very slowly to feel what happens.

I'll try and keep everyone updated with how I get on.