One month of CBD Oil and immune shift?

[Learner1]

There are a number of different chemicals found in cannabis products. They are not all the same.

For our purposes, we want hemp that is high CBD and low THC. Then you need to make sure the source is standardized and toxin free, and that the strain, seeds, stems, and buds have been selected (or deselected) for the properties you want.

I've used Quicksilver Colorado Hemp Oil with some success for headaches and nausea with IVIG and IB antibiotics. It hasn't seemed to interfere with what we were doing with my immune system, but I felt calmer.

Thorne Research just introduced a brand new product with Euopean grown hemp, along with other plant extracts that enhance the spectrum of endocanniboid chemicals. I saw a presentation they have showing some very desirable effects, including bone growth, immune support, and many other desirable qualities. Its in a capsule form and I haven't figured out the dose equivalent, but it seems to act less quickly but for longer.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

I have been taking 2x drops of the 40mg a day, however I have just gone up a strength again.

Endoca says that one drop of the strength I'm taking is roughly 1mg, so 3mg a day. That would put your dose at roughly 2.6 mg a day and then you probably just went higher than my dose.

Endoca advises up-titration, that is starting at low doses and increasing slowly to determine the best dose. I have seen accounts of people using much higher amounts, but this stuff is expensive, and I'm getting good results from regular consumption at this rate.

This researcher asserts that with all illnesses there are problems with the endocannabinoid system. That may explain why, paradoxically (@halcyon ), those of us with ME/CFS have been benefiting from the use of Cannabis. Endocannabinoid discussion starts at 38.45

The Scientist

 

[Butydoc]

Endoca says that one drop of the strength I'm taking is roughly 1mg, so 3mg a day. That would put your dose at roughly 2.6 mg a day and then you probably just went higher than my dose.

Endoca advises up-titration, that is starting at low doses and increasing slowly to determine the best dose. I have seen accounts of people using much higher amounts, but this stuff is expensive, and I'm getting good results from regular consumption at this rate.

This researcher asserts that with all illnesses there are problems with the endocannabinoid system. That may explain why, paradoxically (@halcyon ), those of us with ME/CFS have been benefiting from the use of Cannabis. Endocannabinoid discussion starts at 38.45

The Scientist

Are you aware of any study that compares THC to CBD in terms of effectiveness? It seems that CBD oil has been used for medical purposes but not really compared to THC.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Are you aware of any study that compares THC to CBD in terms of effectiveness?

That's actually so difficult due to the legal status of Cannabis for so long. Things are changing now though and, for me, one of the more interesting discoveries is how beneficial terpenes are when combined with cannabinoids.

To add to the confusion, THC is different than THCa, and CBD as well with CBDa.

THC vs. CBD: What's The Difference?

Marijuana contains over 113 different chemical compounds known as cannabinoids. These compounds interact with our bodies via the endocannabinoid system.

The two most well-known cannabinoids are THC (tetrahydrocannabinol) and CBD (cannabidiol). For decades, researchers have known that THC is responsible for the famous cannabis high.

But until recently, very little was known about the effects of CBD. We now know that CBD can serve to balance the effects of THC, and provides a range of symptom relief and medical potential.

 

[Butydoc]

THC vs. CBD: What's The Difference?

Can you reference an article that demonstrates the superiority of CBD overTHC medically? I guess what I'm looking for is a study which show the clinical difference between these two compounds. The article you referenced makes some observations but no clinical comparisons. Is it possible that THC may be more effective in the medical setting?

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Can you reference an article that demonstrates the superiority of CBD overTHC medically?

No, because it depends so much on what you're treating. If treating psychosis or anxiety disorders, CBD has a clear advantage.

Cannabidiol as a Potential Treatment for Anxiety Disorders

Is it possible that THC may be more effective in the medical setting?

It's differently effective.

 

[Butydoc]

No, because it depends so much on what you're treating. If treating psychosis or anxiety disorders, CBD has a clear advantage.



Differently effective.

I suspect you are correct, but I sure would like to see a research article that confirms your suspicions. Unfortunately there is very little on this subject. Hopefully now that it is legal in many states more researcher will get involved. I know that Israel has been engaged in active research in this field. Looking forward to their published studies.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

I suspect you are correct, but I sure would like to see a research article that confirms your suspicions.

This one's interesting,

Anticancer mechanisms of cannabinoids

Hopefully now that it is legal in many states more researcher will get involved. I know that Israel has been engaged in active research in this field.

There has been so much research, the U.S. has been studying cannabis for decades at the University of Miss. in Oxford. As we've seen with the PACE trial though, sometimes we only want certain answers.

 

[Sushi]

The way I have been using it, THC is more effective than CBD for sleep, stopping those OMG! symptoms you get when you have overdone physically and mentally (I get symptoms that "feel" dangerous), and giving a clear head in the morning. I also have a blend that is half and half and while, it is mildly relaxing it doesn't help other symptoms.

 

[Butydoc]

This one's interesting,

Anticancer mechanisms of cannabinoids



There has been so much research, the U.S. has been studying cannabis for decades at the University of Miss. in Oxford. As we've seen with the PACE trial though, sometimes we only want certain answers.

Very interesting article. The problem I have is that almost all of the references are in mice. I couldn't find a good clinical article that really answered my question. Even though a lot of research has been done, almost none has been done in a clinical setting. As we have seen with retuximab, a good clinical study is very important to answer some basic questions even though phase I trials were positive. Mice models are just that, a proof of concept to justify a clinical trial.

My personal experience has been that indica strain of Marijuana has been fairly effective in softening the blow of a crash and sometimes preventing one.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Even though a lot of research has been done, almost none has been done in a clinical setting.

Here's some,

GW Pharmaceuticals Achieves Positive Results in Phase 2 Proof of Concept Study in Glioma

London, UK, 7 Feb 2017: GW Pharmaceuticals plc (Nasdaq: GWPH, “GW,” “the Company” or “the Group”), a biopharmaceutical company focused on discovering, developing and commercializing novel therapeutics from its proprietary cannabinoid product platform, today announced positive top-line results from an exploratory Phase 2 placebo-controlled clinical study of a proprietary combination of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol (CBD) in 21 patients with recurrent glioblastoma multiforme, or GBM. GBM is a particularly aggressive brain tumor, with a poor prognosis. GW has received Orphan Drug Designation from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Medicines Agency (EMA) for THC:CBD in the treatment of glioma.

GW Announces New Epidiolex® (CBD) Positive Phase 3 Data in Dravet Syndrome and Lennox-Gastaut Syndrome

London, UK, 5 Dec 2016: GW Pharmaceuticals plc (Nasdaq: GWPH, , “GW” or “the Company”), a biopharmaceutical company focused on discovering, developing and commercializing novel therapeutics from its proprietary cannabinoid product platform, announced additional positive Epidiolex® (cannabidiol or CBD) Phase 3 data in poster presentations at the 70th Annual Meeting of the American Epilepsy Society. These data are from the positive pivotal Phase 3 study of Epidiolex in Dravet syndrome and the first pivotal Phase 3 study of Epidiolex in Lennox-Gastaut syndrome (LGS),both reported earlier this year.

 

[Peyt]

I hadn't had a Cold or Flu for around a year and a half until this week, and prior to that whenever I caught a cold (whilst I had mild CFS and Fibromyalgia) it would help to alleviate some of my symptoms, which made me sure of immune system dysfunction.

Around a month or so a go I started using a few drops of CBD oil a day and I have really noticed the effect of it in terms of sleep (from 6 hours to 9/10 hours), slightly more deep and refreshing but still not great, and also muscle tightness/aching, chest tightness, air hunger etc. improved.

I've noticed a few people on forums saying that it has led to them catching their first cold in many years, which is exactly what has happened to me and not only that but I don't seem to be able to shift what seems to be a 4 day cold for everyone else (7-8 days for me so far).

Has this happened to anyone else? Any ideas why?

Hi,
Just tried CBD Hemp oil for the first time yesterday. It made my headache and body pain go away in 3 hours (except my lower back pain) and I slept better... So I am interested.

I am concerned about immunity and how CBD effects the immune system though.
So my question is: have you tried taking any immune boosting supplements while taking CBD? (such as Colostrum or any other immune boosting supplement that can be taken regularly) ?
Would that help counter the effects of lowering NK cells or immune suppression activities while still keeping the benefits of CBD?
Thanks
Peyt

 

[ChrisD]

Cannabinoids have multiple immunosuppressive effects. From the research I’ve looked at, I think they are a horrible idea for people with ME. They negatively impact NK and other immune cells and cause a potent th2 shift, both things the disease itself already causes.

@halcyon I have tried to find this research but have had no success, could you reference some papers?

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

@ChrisD Have a look at this,

Cannabinomimetic Control of Mast Cell Mediator Release

The present review aims to elucidate the emerging role played by cannabinomimetic compounds
in the control of mast cell activation. Mast cells are immune competent cells strategically
localised at the sites directly interfacing with the external environment, which, in case of injury,
regulate the immune response by the release of a plethora of both pre-formed and newly-syn-
thesised mediators. However, although the main goal of mast cell activation is to initiate the
inflammatory reaction, and thus maintain internal homeostasis, the consequences of dysregulat-
ed mast cell activation could be to chronically activate the inflammatory response as occurs in
arthritis, inflammatory bowel diseases, atherosclerosis and asthma. Therefore, much effort has
been made to develop compounds that act to prevent mast cell degranulation.

 

[halcyon]

@halcyon I have tried to find this research but have had no success, could you reference some papers?

http://moscow.sci-hub.hk/16efc2b92f6125bc85d5e0720ee70fbb/massi2006.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748879/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5686045/

Given the legality issues, note that most of this research is on mice/rats. This was a human study however:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15119535

The immunotoxic effects of using bhang appeared in the form of a significant decrease in serum immunoglobulins (IgG and IgM), and C3 and C4 complement protein concentrations (P < 0.05). In addition, our results demonstrated a significant decrease in the absolute number of functionally different subsets of peripheral blood mononuclear lymphocytes, T and B lymphocytes and natural killer (NK) cells in bhang users as compared to controls (P < 0.05).

 

[Ezio]

I have been taking 2x drops of the 40mg a day, however I have just gone up a strength again. My cold has gone and I am still sleeping longer with less muscle tightness, so at the moment the positives outweigh the negatives, of which there are currently none. Interesting to hear your counter opinion @halcyon I will be cautious.

Hi Chris
How are you? I read your thread on cbd oil. Where did you source your oil from? I'm keen to give it a try. I'm also from the UK btw. Thanks

 

[bertiedog]

I tried just one capsule of the lower strength from Healthspan but I felt horrible, brain felt wired and I couldn't sleep so didn't want to repeat the experiment.

Did I take too much? I am suffering horribly the past 6 weeks with repeated viruses (or a reactivated virus that won't go away) and now picked up a very heavy cold that now has turned to a throat infection and I have had to start antibiotics.

Therefore I would love to find something that could help but my immune system which is always underfunctioing and definitely not over. I do have Hashimotos which I know is autoimunne but these days the antibodies are only a little raised for TPO.

Thanks for any suggestions as so fed up with being ill/

Pam

 

[Wolfcub]

@Pam are you able to tolerate herbal medicine? Or have you tried it before? If you get on with it, then there are herbs which are great support for the immune system.
One is Echinacea (and there are three kinds -Ech. Purpurea, Ech. Angustifolia, and Ech. Pallida.
I always find the Angustifolia root stronger and better for when a real infection is happening. I find Ech. Purpurea more of a gentler support. But there are preparations with all three combined.

Not wise to take Echinacea if you have an auto-immune situation though. Some people have had side effects (mostly GI upsets and so it might be wise to test small amounts at first.) but in my experience I never ever had those side effects.

Another gentle but VERY effective herb is Astragalus. It is supportive for the immune system, has helped me a lot, and tastes mild and vaguely sweet-ish. No side effects as far as I can see....but again you would have to test that on yourself and see how you got along with it. You could "google" Astragalus, and you will see what it is, and what it's used for.

 

[bertiedog]

@Wolfcub Yes I regularly take Ech Augustiolia at first sign of a virus and also have been taking Andrographis for a week and half which usually works but this very heavy cold started after just 2 days of feeling better and getting over the previous very bad virus and its like my immune system just cannot cope anymore and by lunchtime I could tell I had all the familiar symptoms of a throat infection. My mouth feels like its on fire plus all the other symptoms so just had to take 500 mg Reflex and now just 4 hours later the pain is very slightly lessening and I have a touch more energy and can at least get off the couch.

Have managed to go a year without antibiotics which is a record for me but the viruses have been terrible ever since I followed the high dose Vitamin C protocol in March/April which seems to have wiped out the small amount of good bacteria I have in my gut. I had been working on my gut since last September but I was still getting Candida issues and SIBO hence getting some advice from a well known CFS doctor here in the UK who just kept telling me the high dose Vitamin C would be the answer for me. Well it definitely wasn't and it was within 2 weeks of being on that which started the virus off and still no better.

I started a Thymus Glandular 3 days ago in the hope that might be helpful, take Oregano every day and also on a liver support capsule which contains small amounts of several herbs so I live in hope!

Pam

 

[HeleneG]

I'm glad to hear of its immunosuppressive qualities. I started taking it a few months ago for arthritis pain and found that it made me feel much better. I only take it at night after dinner, but it's the only part of the day that I feel good. It has also helped with sleep. I eat a section of a chocolate bar. I haven't caught a cold in a while, but I'm also taking subq gamma globulin for an immune deficiency (CVID) so that may make me more immune. My body must be pretty confused between pro and anti immune treatments.