No love of B2 here - a warning about riboflavin

[Sherpa]

Wow @picante and @Freddd - very interesting info about the B2 driving the need for methylfolate or inducing folate deficency. Much thanks!

my background: I have never been able to tolerate even small amounts of methylfolate... it triggers excitotoxicity and inflammation.

About 2 days ago I restarted B2... 35mg total, split into 3 times per day. (Including 1 NatureMade B-complex).Yesterday I woke up with lower back inflammation and general overall inflammation "for no reason" I could think of. Last night I was lying in bed I felt neurologically "blurry" and my scalp itching and my face itching (especially around the eyes). Then I remembered this post - how an onset of inflammation of itching and inflammation can be a sign of B2-induced folate deficiency .

This morning I took 1/4 of a Seeking Health Active B12 with 5-L-MTHF (200mcg methylfolate + 250mcg AdB12 and MeB12) sublingually. It felt amazing - like I was getting "the right stuff" my body was craving. I felt calm energy, maybe some color brightening, a sense of nutritional "relief."

I am hoping and praying that with enough electrolye support (didn't have enough before) and taking B2 - I will now be able to tolerate and keep taking it. I obviously need it. Will update.

 

[Rand56]

If a person is low on thiamine, then taking B2 without thiamine (and you need more of the thiamine than the B2, in our experience), they could drive their thiamine levels even lower because taking B2 will push these enzymes, which also use thiamine.

hi Kimsie

I believe you are on to something here, atleast in regards to my own situation. Just a bit of background here. I, along with many others, got excited when Christine <Dog Person> was talking about B2. Thought there was something to it in regards to my own situation. Started taking B2 and made my depression worse. I've been dealing with depression now for years. More specifically dysthmia. So I didnt take B2 for long and ditched it. Then I got excited about trying high dose thiamine. Did that for awhile and didnt do much of anything for me, and ditched that. BUT ever since I started taking B1 and B2 together, and a small amount of B6, I am having positive results, moreso in the energy dept. I do have to premise that I do not have CFS. When I added in methyl B12, I got more of an antidepressant effect, which I never got before taking methyl B12 without B1 and B2, and B6. Anytime in the past when I took a complete B-Complex it always made me feel worse. So I was thinking that maybe Christine was on to something about the high dose of the other B's depleting the B2. Whether in fact this is true idk, but in my case, I'm having a positive response with just these B's listed.

I've been taking 1500 mg's of Thiamine HCL <500 mg's x 3>, 60 mg's of R5P <20 mgs x 3, oral not sublingual>, and only 12.5 mg of regular B6 oral, then added in 2500 mg's of methyl B12 sublingual. I'm doing this "without" taking any methylfolate. Not getting any folate deficiency nor potassium deficiency sypmtoms. I've known for awhile that I don't believe I have a methylation problem. Been there, done that, with all the methylation supps which didn't do chit for me. SO, B1 "together" with B2 could be key for me.

I have a question for you or anyone else who may know. I read a post on longecity where one dude was saying that if you take oral R5P, he said that you are not absorbing much of it at all. His contention is that only a small amount of it is absorbed in the colon. Do you know if this is true or not? I do know that taking regular B2 is just as good and cheaper. Only reason I'm taking this R5P is that I had some leftover from my last trial of only taking B2 on it's own. I'm going to get the regular B2 and experiment with different dosages with that to see what my sweet spot is. Also, after I do that, I will add in a small amount of methylfolate just to see if I get any added benefit.

I'm only speculating here, but if you are right about taking riboflavin will deplete thiamine even further, I could have had a double whammy when I only took B2 on it's own "and" for awhile I was taking a high dose of zinc, and according to acu-cell.com, zinc is an antagonist to B1. Always comes down to balance right? LOL

 

[Rand56]

Funny, when I did the NutrEval, the only BIG deficiency was B2. Based on my bloodwork, they recommended 50 mg per day. I understand LCF depleted it, in my case.

hi Critterina

So Carnitine reduces B2 levels? Do you have a reference for this? I dont take LCF but I eat a fair amount of red meat. B1 together with B2 is helping me.

 

[pogoman]

Both carnitine and B2 are parts of the various mitochondrial processes needed for cell energy and deficiencies can lead to fatigue and muscle pain or damage.
If one is helped by either then its possible that other amino acids and vitamins are aslo needed to ramp up healing.
Carnitine and Choline work together along with coq10 and riboflavin.
They all have helped my myopathy altho I have to be careful with carnitine as it can cause me to feel over stimulated aka wired.
I also have found 800mcg of methyl folate every 3 hours helps reduce pain and also temper issues possibly a result of the carnitine.

Another is the mineral phosphorus, its part of the Krebs or citric cycle and phosphorus is part of ATP which is used for cell energy.
Low phosphorus levels are not common but I had labs done friday for for another issue and come to find out my serum phosphorus level is at the bottom of normal.

 

[aturtles]

CAREFUL WITH B1. I got set back significantly by taking too much thiamin/b1. And by that I mean 100mg/day -- WAY too much. I'm now down below 10mg/day, and back on track.

Freddd says, and my experience supports this, to keep b1,b2,b3 low with the Deadlock Quartet protocol.

My advice is to be really careful about those three, if you're working the methylation cycle.

 

[Gondwanaland]

CAREFUL WITH B1. I got set back significantly by taking too much thiamin/b1. And by that I mean 100mg/day -- WAY too much. I'm now down below 10mg/day, and back on track.

Could you please report some details in the B1 thread?

 

[aturtles]

Could you please report some details in the B1 thread?

Happy to. Did.

 

[Violeta]

Both carnitine and B2 are parts of the various mitochondrial processes needed for cell energy and deficiencies can lead to fatigue and muscle pain or damage.
If one is helped by either then its possible that other amino acids and vitamins are aslo needed to ramp up healing.
Carnitine and Choline work together along with coq10 and riboflavin.
They all have helped my myopathy altho I have to be careful with carnitine as it can cause me to feel over stimulated aka wired.
I also have found 800mcg of methyl folate every 3 hours helps reduce pain and also temper issues possibly a result of the carnitine.

Another is the mineral phosphorus, its part of the Krebs or citric cycle and phosphorus is part of ATP which is used for cell energy.
Low phosphorus levels are not common but I had labs done friday for for another issue and come to find out my serum phosphorus level is at the bottom of normal.

This whole post ^^^^ is interesting, but for right now I would just like to comment on the phosphorus issue. That is just so interesting!

 

[pogoman]

This whole post ^^^^ is interesting, but for right now I would just like to comment on the phosphorus issue. That is just so interesting!

Hope it helps, I added phosphorus last monday and energy improved some.
I added manganese saturday (also involved in mito processes) and I did not crash at night like is usual after alot of activity on both Saturday and yesterday.
I definitely feel more energy and less pain.
My hands have hurt in the mornings the past couple years and its vastly improved since last week.

A correction on the jarrows methylfolate, its 400 mg (one capsule) every 3 hrs or so that helps pain, not 800 mg.
It was also the acetyl carnitine that seemed to cause wiredness and anxiety to a certain extent.
I stopped it but still taking l-carnitine and I don't get that anxious feelings like before.

 

[lift]

what phosphorus supplement are you taking pogoman?

 

[pogoman]

what phosphorus supplement are you taking pogoman?

I bought Swanson's monosodium phosphate in powder form from Amazon.

 

[dannybex]

Riboflavin (vitamin B2), taken in anything other than small, proportionate doses to other B vitamins seems to lower serotonin. It did in me.

Then I read enough to convince me to try avoiding the riboflavin, and stopped taking it. Ta da. In the 2 days since stopping it, no low serotonin depression - after a week of fairly relentless all day experience of the problem.

I've long been a canary in the coal mine when it comes to serotonin - in other words, I probably have less "reserve" serotonin and thus notice the effects of serotonin-lowering products more than the average member of the public does.

For example, I've long known that the herb called feverfew, which has study evidence as causing lower serotonin, will quickly give me low serotonin depression within a day of starting it.

For what it's worth, my routine for the past year or so before the riboflavin experiment has been:
*healthy diet, limiting intake of fake folic acid even in foods
*low dose use of methylfolate and methyl B12, I have not raised the doses and don't notice much
*about 250 mg per day of niacinamide.
That's all for B vitamins for the past year or so. Perhaps that made me too low in the other B vitamins to balance out the riboflavin.

A study: (last sentence of it is "This finding suggests that riboflavin deficiency renders MAO more susceptible to inhibition.", so a deficiency in riboflavin inhibits serotonin breakdown, and thus the presence of more riboflavin may speed up serotonin breakdown)
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/o63-008?journalCode=cjbp#.U9JgrbH5fSg

Hi @South,

I realize this post is a year old, but wanted to thank you for it. I've been taking 100-150 mgs of riboflavin for the last 4-5 months probably 5 days a week to help with high histamine, and while it has helped with that, I have also become more irritable, cranky, anxious in general. I attributed that to running out of injectable thiamine in March, but there's a possibility that it could be related to low serotonin.

Two questions: Did you ever have your serotonin levels tested to confirm your hypothesis?

And just out of curiousity, how did you decide on the high dose of niacinamide? I don't know, but it seems to me that might negate any effect of low-dose methylation supps. It also raises serotonin (which perhaps that's why you were taking it?), but also raises histamine big time, hence, I can't tolerate hardly any of it right now.

Thanks in advance.

 

[South]

Did you ever have your serotonin levels tested to confirm your hypothesis?

And just out of curiousity, how did you decide on the high dose of niacinamide? I don't know, but it seems to me that might negate any effect of low-dose methylation supps. It also raises serotonin (which perhaps that's why you were taking it?), but also raises histamine big time

Hi @dannybex

I haven't had serotonin tested, but somewhere read that it can't be reliably tested anyway...not sure if that's true.

The niacinamide I take: indeed, I do take it because it seems to prevent low serotonin. Figured that out by accident two years or so ago, using a supplement tracking system I do on paper. It's not that high a dose though, in my opinion - it's half a capsule per day, for what that's worth.

I don't worry about that niacinamide affecting methylation because I don't have ME (energy is generally pretty good for me, also), and back when I explored methylation for other reasons, I couldn't get methylation supplements to do anything for me. That was before I added niacinamide, so I can't blame the niacinamide for the methylation supplements not doing much for me.

So the niacinamide doesn't seem to do anything bad for me, that I notice, and it does do something good for me.

I don't seem to have any histamine problem, and adding niacinamide hasn't given me one. Again, for what that observation is worth, there you go.

Hope that helps!

 

[snowman]

I am very confused as to what everyone means by "B2" - Riboflavin? Or does everyone mean FMN/R5P(flavin mononucleotide = riboflavin-5-phosphate = co-enzymated B2)? Do some posters mean one and others mean the other?

With different responses to riboflavin versus FMN (sort of like folic acid versus 5-MTHF), I am trying to learn more about both Riboflavin and FMN to figure out what's going on and how each may affect the rest of the system differently.

Would it be ok to adopt wording of "Riboflavin" and "FMN" rather than calling them both B2?

 

[ahmo]

@snowman I see I didn't get back to this thread. I found FMN to be totally different from r5p. On another thread, maybe the B2 I Love you, there was speculation as to whether this was due only to sublingual, as there seems to be little difference otherwise. I don't know what the difference is, except that I've gottne remarkable results from FMN, which I documented in blog. My B2 trials, which were of larger doses than the FMN, were terrible, giving me extreme ammonia reaction.

 

[Avengers26]

@ahmo When I googled, I learnt R5P & FMN are synonyms for the same "activated" B2. The regular vitamin B2 is different from R5P/FMN. Did you try both R5P & the sublingual FMN but got results only from the FMN?

It would have to do with the sublingual absorption because I can't think of any other difference between the two. I don't tolerate regular vitamin B2 well which is why I want to try the activated form & I was not sure if I should get R5P or sublingual FMN.

I also don't tolerate sublingual P5P well. It makes me very drowsy. So, I swallow it (I still have some left). I tolerate it better that way. May be, because of slower absorption through gut than sublingual?

 

[juniemarie]

@Avengers26 2 different forms, both reduced forms though. We are taking it for our +/+ MAO gene. It is sublingual

 

[snowman]

@ahmo, I wonder if the R5P that did nothing for you was actually the R5P sodium salt (CAS 130-40-5) - wiki says it turns right into riboflavin after digestion. And then maybe the FMN that worked wonders was the R5P (CAS 146-17-8). I'm having trouble figuring out if the single quote after the 5 (riboflain-5'-phosphate) is significant or if the same chemical can either be referred to with the quote or without it.

 

[Avengers26]

@juniemarie Did you mean you are taking sublingual FMN because you found it more effective? I was looking into these ones -

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Natural...&lc=en-US&w=coenzymated b2&rc=52&sr=null&ic=3

or

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-r-5-p-riboflavin-5-phosphate-50-mg-60-veg-caps

 

[ahmo]

, @snowman When I googled, I learnt R5P & FMN are synonyms for the same "activated" B2. The regular vitamin B2 is different from R5P/FMN. Did you try both R5P & the sublingual FMN but got results only from the FMN?

Thanks for asking. I see I've been in error. I checked my stash, the B2 I tried was B2, not r5p. There is r5p in my multi B, but the one I attempted, and had terrible ammonia response from, was not activated B. So I now have no clue re the effects of r5p compared to FMN. I should go back and correct all my statements re these 2.

2 different forms, both reduced forms though. We are taking it for our +/+ MAO gene. It is sublingual

Do you have any references? Once FMN worked for me, I stopped researching.