niacin questions

[caledonia]

@lift:
I think it's a problem with definitions... What is over-methylation exactly?

Maybe you're right, all I can say is that I have no evidence that symptoms of excessive anxiety correlate with over-methlyation.

Anxiety does not necessarily equate to overmethylation. It can also be caused by GABA/glutamate imbalance, CBS issues, low potassium on methylation startup, low or high adrenals, etc. I also get anxiety from certain food additives or chemicals.

If you know GABA is an issue, you can take GABA or theanine, and also avoid all processed food and then the four natural foods that have high glutamates - tomatoes, mushrooms, Parmesan cheese and there's one more, can't remember.

I had to do all that for awhile, then as I went along with methylation, I was able to stop the GABA. Now I can tolerate small amounts of the high glutamate foods.

 

[PeterPositive]

Anxiety does not necessarily equate to overmethylation. It can also be caused by GABA/glutamate imbalance, CBS issues, low potassium on methylation startup, low or high adrenals, etc. I also get anxiety from certain food additives or chemicals.

GABA did help indeed. Only I discovered it after 2-3 weeks of struggling with the sublingual methylfolate. Part of the problem was trying to go faster than I actually could, at the time.

 

[PeterPositive]

Anxiety does not necessarily equate to overmethylation.

No it doesn't, exactly, but as you can see many people complain about extra anxiety caused my methyl supplements as over-methylation.

I don't think it's accurate, and it seems to imply that a blocked/low methylation has been pushed too fast which is unlikely. Especially because often times these symptoms occur at the beginning of the treatment and with relatively low doses of supplements.

Could be symptoms of methylation startup... maybe, or simply over sensitivity for methyl donors.

 

[ahmo]

@skyebean When I found I was 'overmethylating' after raising folate doses I had great success by taking a 1mg B12. This dampened the symptoms almost immediately, without fail.

 

[boo85]

As far as I know, taking more than a certain amount (50-100mg or higher) would soak up methyl groups, slowing or stopping methylation. So if you kept it low, like 20mg, it should be ok.

Thanks caledonia. I want to keep my dose of niacin big enough to help with anxiety from the B12, but low enough so that B12 continues on doing its thing.

I'll try takin only 20mg from now on.

 

[PeterPositive]

20mg sounds like an unharmful dose... basically it's the standard RDA.
I take 65mg as (inositol hexanicotinate + niacinamide ascorbate) + 25mg NAD + 6mg NADH

I have experimented with different types and dosages. I feel a big difference when I stop taking it and it doesn't seem to impact my methylation as far as I can see from the lab tests.

I would certainly like to learn more about how much B3 can slow down methylation, and what would be a safe dose in general terms. I suspect it can vary greatly from person to person.

I also wonder what happens in people who regularly take 1000+mg on a daily basis... I suppose gram-sized doses would definitely impact anybody's methylation? Is this a big overlooked side effect overlooked by doctors? Especially functional ones?

Do you know of any resources, books or similar that addresses this issue?

 

[skyebean]

@ahmo I read that in the threads somewhere, and tried that. I was taking methyl b12, and that never bothered me, no matter how much I took. It did not help with those overmethylation symptoms, though. I switched to hydroxy, and that only added to the symptoms I associate with overmethylation when I was in that place.

I know that there is debate about whether or not what is happening is overmethylation. I do know that niacin knocks it back, whatever is happening.

The main indicator for me is that my temperature goes over 98.6, and once I get it below that (with niacin) the physical discomfort and emotional issues go away. I was sitting down sewing the other day, pondering a conversation I'd recently had. As time went on, I began feeling more, and more enraged. I checked my temps, and sure enough they had started to rise above 98.6.

I cannot find any other information about why the temperature rise would be happening, except for a post on Amy Yasko's forums where the mom said it was a fever due to detox. I wouldn't think it would be a fever, though, if niacin takes it down (for me). I just want to know what causes my temperature to rise. Is it thyroid? hypothalamus? adrenals? If it's affecting my temperature, then it's affecting my metabolism, right? Where does that fit in the methylation cycle?

Anyone? Anyone?

 

[ahmo]

Wow, dramatic temperature effects! You might start a thread w/ this in title to get some more input.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wonder if some of the symptoms related as overmethylation could be a mild serotonin syndrome. I suspect some of my symptoms are related to it. Dietary triptophan is synthesized into serotonin leading to a niacin shortage.

izzy

 

[skyebean]

@ahmo Thank you. I've just done that..

@Gondwanaland I looked up serotonin syndrome, and rise in body temperature is a symptom… researching more.. Thanks for the input..

 

[skyebean]

@skyebean When I found I was 'overmethylating' after raising folate doses I had great success by taking a 1mg B12. This dampened the symptoms almost immediately, without fail.

@ahmo - so, neither hydroxy b12 nor methyl b12 did anything for this. In fact, I could take tons of either and it never contributed to feeling overmethylated, or much of anything else. I did Sterling's app, and the chart at the end showed that adeno b12 is a cofactor for the transulfuration pathway. I had already been considering it, and that made me want to try it to see if it would help with my 'overmethylation' (or whatever it is) symptoms. I've been taking it for about a week, and three different days when I took it, my climbing temperature got knocked back down along with my symptoms (irritability, inflammation, lack of motivation).

Also, I haven't really felt much with the hydroxy b12 or the methyl b12, but with the adeno...Oh my! I feel like I have panoramic vision, I feel light and happy, with so much energy - not amped up energy, just inspired-feeling energy..

It's only been a week, but so far my test of the adeno cooling down my symptoms has been a success. This issue has been the major block in my healing process....

I'm not sure why that would happen....do you (or does anyone else) know?

 

[ahmo]

@skyebean I can understnd that hydroxy wouldn't, Fred felt it was a very poor choice...I can't go into explanations re why. I'm surprised the adeno worked in this instance, as it's related to ATP, rather than directly to methylation. I have pretty rudimentary understandings of the biochemistry. But I've recently learned that AdenoB12 is useful when the nitric oxide cycle is producing too much peroxynitrite...Martin Pall's NO/ONOO cycle. Adeno and Acetyl-L-Carnitine are 2 of the things I've added to combat this effect.

Whatever, it's great you found something that works!!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@skyebean how much of each have you been taking?

 

[skyebean]

@Gondwanaland I started with 3000 mcg (that's one lozenge from Seeking Health). I decided to cut that in half after the first two days, because I suspected it might be making me too alert in the wee hours... Interesting for me, because I can take 5000mcgs of methylcobalamin right before bed, and it doesn't affect me at all.

@ahmo, thanks!! I'm going to go back to Martin Pall's site, and research that more. Another lead!

 

[ahmo]

skyebean, the lik to pall's site has been malfunctioning for me. Not sure if it's fixed.

 

[Lou]

I wonder if some of the symptoms related as overmethylation could be a mild serotonin syndrome. I suspect some of my symptoms are related to it. Dietary triptophan is synthesized into serotonin leading to a niacin shortage.

izzy

I'd never heard of serotonin syndrome before but I have a longstanding problem with niacin shortage (often, as little as 10-15mg will cause flushing), so I'll look into this syndrome and see if I can learn what might help to tolerate larger doses. Thanks, @Gondwanaland .

Apologies if this strayed too far off topic.


Well, just googled serotonin syndrome, appears to be caused by drug interactions and since I take zero prescription drugs something else causes my niacin deficiency. Gondwanaland, do you perchance have other ideas about causes for low b3?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Well, just googled serotonin syndrome, appears to be caused by drug interactions

Lou, due to +/+ MAO-A I get serotonin syndrome very easily from taking serotonin precursors/neurostimulants like 25mg 5-Htp or high dose methylation supplements. Serotonin builds up because my breakdown is very slow. It can be worsened by the wrong diet with lots of fermented foods and high Tyramine foods.

I think high dose mfolate/mB12 can cause niacin shortage.

 

[skyebean]

@ahmo, I found this http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...-theory-by-martin-pall-ph-d-part-i-the-theory

There's a link at the bottom to the recommendations...

 

[brenda]

I live in Europe and I was able to test Pyroluria via this lab:
http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/

It's a urine test, the price is accessible ( < 100 euros). If you decide to do it make sure to test for HPL + Kryptopirroles, not just the latter.

cheers

I see this lab requires a referral from a professional. Is this how you were able to do the test?

 

[PeterPositive]

I see this lab requires a referral from a professional. Is this how you were able to do the test?

Although I am followed by a doctor and a naturopath I didn't have to provide any specific referral for the test.
I just ordered it, got the result and sent it to my doc.