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New, Inexpensive CBS Ammonia Fix

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
An update on me and malic acid/ammonia: I've found FMN form of B2 eliminates my need for other supps to deal w/ ammonia. Now that I've begun taking this transdermally, instead of sublingual, I'm using only 1/2 18mg tab daily, divided in 2 (Source Naturals). This might possibly be useful especially for those w/ MAO or SUOX snps.
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
@aaron_c Thank you for your thoughts. Sometimes we have to speculate about a theory in order to experiment with it.

The fact that you can even think about a phrase like "asymmetric dimethyl arginine" impresses the socks off of me ;-)
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
@ahmo

All I can think to say is: Huh. Any idea why transdermal B2 is working so well for you?

I tried transdermal B2 (in addition to my normal oral B2) and found it made me feel sick: Stopped energy, stopped lymph(?), confusion. Maybe I just took too much.

Also, I'm missing something. How do you see transdermal B2 helping with MAO or SUOX issues?
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
All I can think to say is: Huh. Any idea why transdermal B2 is working so well for you?
No idea. The MAO link is how it was first presented to me, by former pr member ppodhajski. I'm not sure if it was speculation on his part, or part of his research. I included SUOX, because I have a problem there, so maybe that is related. I wrote about my FMN experience, including the references that prompted me to try it, in blog, linked in my signature.
 

MAF14

Senior Member
Messages
195
An update on me and malic acid/ammonia: I've found FMN form of B2 eliminates my need for other supps to deal w/ ammonia. Now that I've begun taking this transdermally, instead of sublingual, I'm using only 1/2 18mg tab daily, divided in 2 (Source Naturals). This might possibly be useful especially for those w/ MAO or SUOX snps.

I'm also MAO +/+ and pretty sure I've had ammonia issues. What dose FMN are you taking for this?
 

xena

Senior Member
Messages
241
Hey friends, I'm getting brain fogged very quickly upon taking magnesium malate. Anyone else have that problem?

Charcoal helps me but I find the Yucca intolerable due to estrogen dominance

I'm also trying prebiotics. Able to tolerate big doses but not noticing positive effects like I've had in the past with food sources of rs (which I cannot tolerate) or with butyrate supplements (which I could buy again but I'd rather... Homebrew). Going to try adding prescript assist
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
Hey friends, I'm getting brain fogged very quickly upon taking magnesium malate. Anyone else have that problem?
I wish! Mag malate pushed me into a horrible gout crisis, and gave muscle fasciculations to my husband. It seems we are loaded with uric acid.
Charcoal helps me but I find the Yucca intolerable due to estrogen dominance
Interestingly estrogen replacement + highly estrogenic herbs rescued me from the pain.
 

xena

Senior Member
Messages
241
I wish! Mag malate pushed me into a horrible gout crisis, and gave muscle fasciculations to my husband. It seems we are loaded with uric acid.

Interestingly estrogen replacement + highly estrogenic herbs rescued me from the pain.
Oh, biology.... Haha

What's the relationship between the malic and the uric acid?
 

sflorence

Senior Member
Messages
134
Anyone have some updates? It seems like some people are benefiting from this but it's not a "magic bullet" for anyone but rather a minor source of improvement.

Turns out I am some weird urea cycle problems I am trying to decipher. My urine glutamine is off the charts as well as a few other aminos
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
It seems like some people are benefiting from this but it's not a "magic bullet" for anyone but rather a minor source of improvement.

Hi @sflorence

I think you hit the nail on the head. Still, I think it's probably worthwhile if only for the production of NADPH.

I have since eliminated my "ammonia" symptoms with UV-B light. Here is my thinking on why--although as @xena pointed out it seems like we typically test low or normal for ADMA, so now I'm thinking high ADMA might only be an issue for people on methylation supplements, although unsupplemented individuals might have the same symptom set that responds to oxidative stress (ONOO in particular) and not to protein intake or B6.
 

sflorence

Senior Member
Messages
134
Hi @sflorence

I think you hit the nail on the head. Still, I think it's probably worthwhile if only for the production of NADPH.

I have since eliminated my "ammonia" symptoms with UV-B light. Here is my thinking on why--although as @xena pointed out it seems like we typically test low or normal for ADMA, so now I'm thinking high ADMA might only be an issue for people on methylation supplements, although unsupplemented individuals might have the same symptom set that responds to oxidative stress (ONOO in particular) and not to protein intake or B6.


Interesting thanks for the response. My entire urea cycle is Out of whack and I'm looking for some ways to get it back in balance. I think I have ammonia problems that stem from this.

Basically my body is sucking up all of my arginine and using it, while it is peeing out all of my glutamine, Asparagine, and ornithine.

I wonder if trying to tackle this will solve any ammonia problems I have. I know my results from a Genova diagnostics test,.

My next step is to try to supplement with aspartic acid, maybe some OKG, and manganese. These three things might be able to help balance the cycle. If my chemistry serves me right, I think aspartic acid breaks down and aspargine and something else.
I've had someone mentioned to me that supplementing glutamine might cause a problem if I have high ammonia, but I think Ill included anyways after I get those three supplemented

Anyways, if you have any input on this I'd be happy to hear
 

xena

Senior Member
Messages
241
@sflorence I'm dealing with a similar issue now
Have helped me:
Charcoal helps a little to bind ammonia
Amy Yasko's CBS ammonia rna - decreases production
Creatine - helps detox ammonia. I think by sparing aminos involved in the cycle
Ornithine - mildly helpful
Arginine - mildly helpful
Citrulline - mildly helpful
Not sure which one is best

Nrf2 activation - eating Broccoli sprout pills with meat has significantly helped @aaron_c
The Broccoli sprouts have also helped me to tolerate sulfur foods again without significant depression. Coffee enemas help for the same reason - only time I can use mthf with no negative side effects.
Nrf2 is a key detox/antioxidant transcription factor - activating it causes increased glutathione production and recycling and other stuff. I don't know why this helps me but suspect it's reducing inflammation locally in a way that shifts the products of the transsulfuration reaction.

Malic acid - helps but causes me other symptoms due to preexisting uric acid buildup (b6 helps this but causes me to be overwhelmed with ammonia)

I just ordered ornithine Aspartate, hoping it will help for the same reason as the malic acid

Unsure about -
Molybdenum
Manganese, Boron - caution, either of these can cause insomnia

Has not helped me:
Low sulfur diet - also gave me shitty skin and depleted my methyl donor pool
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
@sflorence

In the urea cycle arginine is used as a sort of "ammonia carrier." It's the last step before the body clips off urea for excretion, converting the arginine into ornithine. If you are peeing out a lot of ornithine that suggests to me that you might actually have a relative excess of ornithine, meaning that the conversion from arginine to ornithine seems to be working just fine.

Figure_41_04_01.jpg

Concepts of Biology -- First Canadian Edition by Molnar & Gair

Personally I have found no benefit to "ammonia" symptoms from taking any of the supplements you mentioned, but again I suspect that "ammonia" symptoms are actually a BH4 deficiency that can in some cases be exacerbated by the synthesis of extra arginine as part of the urea cycle. So in my mind moving ammonia more efficiently through the urea cycle isn't really the issue, as it will all end up as part of arginine at some point.

I know some will disagree on the efficacy of those amino acid supplements (@xena)--and I think it's great that we're all working together and sharing our experiences to try to figure this out. I can say for myself that they have not helped, and that the mechanism of action that seems to explain my symptoms (and lack thereof) does not (yet?) account for their success, and in a few cases suggests ways in which they could cause problems.
 

xena

Senior Member
Messages
241
@aaron_c Yasko also believes that the bottleneck is low levels of Bh4

I think that maybe correct given that the blood levels of arginine, Ornithine etc are apparently similar in cfs patients and healthy controls. A little bit different but not significantly lower.

I also think that a lower level of eNOS activity / nitric oxide formation maybe at play. First, nitric oxide production is compromised in a hypoxic state. I've benefited from nitrates in food and know that they can encourage nitric oxide production in a hypoxic state.

Even if bh4 is the limiting reagent, the aminos could still be supportive by increasing the amount of available substrate for that part of the cycle, and compensating for the lower
Bh4 (Unless we are totally replete with those aminos already) Consistent with that, I see a modest benefit by the not a resolution of the Ammonia symptoms when I take them.

Why is it that you think that the nadph is the reason malic helps over the malate to Aspartate conversion? Being that we are hypometabolic specifically in Tca cycle it makes sense we'd be putting out a low level of Aspartate.

Anyway if the ornithine Aspartate is more helpful than the straight ornithine it might indicate that. On the other hand if something that shifts nadph production - lack of sleep, niagen? - affects ammonia levels that would also tell is something. Of course, these aren't mutually exclusive.
 
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xena

Senior Member
Messages
241
Also -

"The hexa-coordinate heme in the H2S-generating human enzyme cystathionine β-synthase (CBS) acts as a redox-sensitive regulator that impairs CBS activity upon binding of NO• or CO at the reduced iron."

Notice that a lot of things that help increase no production - uv light, Arginine, manganese, molybdenum, fmn. Bh4 itself (?) I'm experimenting with nitrates to see if that would help

"it has been recently shown that the diflavin enzyme methionine synthase reductase is able to reduce the CBS heme with NADPH as the electron donor (14, 15), conferring greater physiologic relevance to ferrous CBS and its adducts with CO and NO•."

“In a mouse model of brain hypoxia, cerebral vasodilation has been reported to be associated with CBS regulation by CO. The CO-generating oxygen sensor heme oxygenase HO-2 is down-regulated in hypoxia, and the lower than basal CO levels result in a de-repression of CBS-catalyzed H2S generation, which mediates vasodilation of precapillary arterioles (24).“

The nrf2 stuff that relieves my ammonia symptoms is a heme oxygenase 1 stimulator. Ho1 produces CO which inhibits CBS
 
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sflorence

Senior Member
Messages
134
@xena

Thanks for the reply!

I have medication resistance depression. Are you saying that sulphur can induce depression in some people?

If true about the Sulphur induced depression, what can you do to treat it? I imagine all you can do is avoid it. Funny enough, my depression got REALLY bad after a DMPS chelation, which I believe has sulphur in it.

I have tried the BroccoMax from Jarrow and got little benefit from it, didn't give it a long trial but I can usually tell if something works for me immediately. I am very sensitive.
 

MAF14

Senior Member
Messages
195
@xena

Thanks for the reply!

I have medication resistance depression. Are you saying that sulphur can induce depression in some people?

If true about the Sulphur induced depression, what can you do to treat it? I imagine all you can do is avoid it. Funny enough, my depression got REALLY bad after a DMPS chelation, which I believe has sulphur in it.

I have tried the BroccoMax from Jarrow and got little benefit from it, didn't give it a long trial but I can usually tell if something works for me immediately. I am very sensitive.

Citrulline malate is popular with bodybuilders as an ammonia scavenger. Have you tried it?
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
Yasko also believes that the bottleneck is low levels of Bh4

Agreed, and she deserves credit for fishing out that connection. However she believes BH4 is depleted because increased ammonia makes NOS run backwards and somehow that when it runs backwards it uses up BH4.

There are two things wrong with this. First, NOS is/are the enzyme(s) that produce NO. It doesn't come from anywhere else that I know of. The equation is:

2 L-arginine + 3 NADPH + 1 H+ + 4 O2 2 citrulline +2 nitric oxide + 4 H2O + 3 NADP+

Basically arginine is transformed into citruline + NO. Yasko argues that when we have extra ammonia it can cause NOS to run "backwards," taking citrulline and NO and creating arginine. But to have NO NOS has to run forwards in order to produce it. So there's no net change in the amount of citrulline from NOS. Even assuming high citrulline (and Naviaux found serum citrulline to be normal for us) it would mostly result in NOS inactivity as levels of arginine, citrulline, and nitric oxide reached an equilibrium. I don't see it resulting in a bunch of arginine production. Yasko's theory hinges partly on high citrulline causing high arginine synthesis via NOS, which appears to me impossible.

The second problem with Yasko's theory regarding NOS is that when NOS runs backwards it uses up BH4. BH4 is a cofactor for NOS but it is not "used up" by it (See Wikipedia: "Tetrahydrobiopterin provides an additional electron during the catalytic cycle which is replaced during turnover.") At best some of the NO that NOS produces will combine with superoxide to form peroxynitrite, which oxidizes BH4. This explanation wouldn't work, however, if NOS was somehow--magically perhaps--producing net movement towards arginine by using up citrulline and NO.

But Yasko isn't just wrong about how NOS effects BH4, she's wrong about how MTHFR effects BH4: She suggests that MTHFR runs "backwards" to convert BH2 (q-BH2 actually) to BH4, which has only been shown in vitro when you add very high concentrations of 5-MTHF--concentrations would almost certainly cause "methyltrap." Methyltrap is a condition where 5-MTHF cannot be converted because there is no B12 for methionine synthase, and MTHFR normally doesn't run backwards, thus methylfolate is "trapped." So even if we could reach the necessary concentrations of 5-MTHF to run MTHFR backwards, we would also create a "methyltrap," which is quite uncomfortable and unhealthy.

In summary, Yasko may be getting parts of treatment right but I think she's getting decent chunks of theory dead-wrong.

Why is it that you think that the nadph is the reason malic helps over the malate to Aspartate conversion? Being that we are hypometabolic specifically in Tca cycle it makes sense we'd be putting out a low level of Aspartate.

This is where Yasko's bad theories can lead to some bad or ineffective treatments, I believe.

Under Yasko's theory the problem is 1. That we make too much ammonia and possibly 2. That because of krebs cycle problems we might have uric acid cycle blocks that forces ammonia to use the NOS "shortcut." The second point was my original reasoning behind why malic acid helped me. But if we truly didn't have enough aspartate to combine with citrulline to form argininosuccinate then we should have high citrulline--and as I pointed out above, Naviaux didn't find this. Maybe we have low aspartate, maybe we have low malate, maybe supplementing malic acid or aspartate helps fill holes in our biochemisty and we feel better for that, but as far as I can tell aspartate isn't low enough to impact the urea cycle.

One final note: I have concerns with using Citrulline and Arginine as supplements. Even if one buys into Yasko's view of things, L-Citrulline would seem to be a bad choice, as it is essentially an ammonia carrier. And even if one were trying to unblock the urea cycle in order to move more ammonia through it, adding a molecule already carrying ammonia seems like a poor choice.

Arginine, like citrulline, is essentially carrying ammonia. Unlike citrulline, it is an amino acid used to make proteins and nitric oxide. Scientists have studied arginine as a possible way to prevent heart attacks. And there were some positive indications. But then this study which gave arginine to patients starting after their first heart attack was ended early when six patients in the treatment group died (none of the control group did). It may be that the difference had something to do with higher production of asymmetric dimethyl arginine from arginine; that since high ADMA:arginine is a risk factor for heart disease many heart attack patients have an already high ratio of ADMA:arginine, and adding more arginine only ends up producing more ADMA for them.

In any case, Naviaux found high serum arginine, so I'm not sure why we would want to supplement more.

Ornithine (and here I'm just reading off the biochemical pathways map, so I'm not sure how prevalent this is) can be converted to glutamate, and glutamate is what the body uses to transport ammonia. So if ammonia is really the problem, then excess ornithine is potentially a problem too.
 
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