Need large amounts of Mfolate throughout day AND potassium--but potassium opposes MF--help?!

[GenDylan]

ahmo thank you so much for the help. how much b12 were you taking when the folate increased your histamines?
sounds like a methyl trap - which im afraid of myself, when taking so much folate.. ill shoot to get 20 mg a day of mb12.. and also some AdoCbl ..

regarding the mast cell theory. its definitely a big part of this.. but, methylation is what takes out histamine at the root, its the system that takes it out - and i know methylation messed up my histamine, and yours.
but still, i wish there was a medicine that just made the mast cells handle the histamine well.

 

[GenDylan]

Hi GenDylan,

ENZYMATIC THERAPY B12 Infusion, but NOT JARROW MeCbl. It went bad about 15months or so ago. You likely will have better results. You also need AdoCbl and -carnitine fumarate to undo the major deadlocks in my experience. I used to have MCS, hot and cold running allergies and MCS. Good luck. It may be more balance than shear quantity.

freddd, you may really be on to something with the AdoCbl to help me. once you broke it down to me that AdoCbl is ATP, i see how it could be crucial specifically to my case. because - it is possible that i have a buildup of Methionine , that is unable to be converted to SAM because of a lack of ATP(AdoCbl). some sights say that a buildup of Methionine can inhibit MTHFR activity. (All sights say that high SAM inhibits MTHFR activity.)
so, the lack of ATP could potentially be the cause of the logjam..

regardless ill need large amounts of Mfolate, to produce THF.
when you said it may be more balance than sheer quantity - is this because of a possible methyl trap if i take to much Folate w/ enough b12? or?

also, i know youve commented many times on the "b12-folate" supplement ratio.. youve said that even less than 500mcg of B12 could lead to a need of 30mg of folate. ive also seen you say that you dont know how much folate 500mcg CANT process-like that it would take care of any amount of folate and avoid a methyl trap. realistically , what how many mg of B12 do you think would FOR SURE process 50mg of folate?

thanks FREDDD!

 

[Freddd]

freddd, you may really be on to something with the AdoCbl to help me. once you broke it down to me that AdoCbl is ATP, i see how it could be crucial specifically to my case. because - it is possible that i have a buildup of Methionine , that is unable to be converted to SAM because of a lack of ATP(AdoCbl). some sights say that a buildup of Methionine can inhibit MTHFR activity. (All sights say that high SAM inhibits MTHFR activity.)
so, the lack of ATP could potentially be the cause of the logjam..

regardless ill need large amounts of Mfolate, to produce THF.
when you said it may be more balance than sheer quantity - is this because of a possible methyl trap if i take to much Folate w/ enough b12? or?

also, i know youve commented many times on the "b12-folate" supplement ratio.. youve said that even less than 500mcg of B12 could lead to a need of 30mg of folate. ive also seen you say that you dont know how much folate 500mcg CANT process-like that it would take care of any amount of folate and avoid a methyl trap. realistically , what how many mg of B12 do you think would FOR SURE process 50mg of folate?

thanks FREDDD!

Hi GenDylan,

Except for detoxing things which destroys both kinds of b12 for chemical reasons, ie cyanide, nitrous oxide and so on are stronger oxidizers of the cobalamin molecule than their more reactive ligands.

Mostly b12 is not used up. It is used as a temporary carrier OF CERTAIN CHEMICALS AND BASICALLY THEY Are all passed around the circle over and over. Each bit of AdoCbl in a mitochondrion stays there for the life of the mitochondrion, about 71 days half life estimated. The loss rate is said to be about 6 mcg a day or thereabouts. However, injected or sublingually absorbed cobalamins are excreted with an initial serum halflife of 20-50 mins, losing 99% in 24 hours. As far as I know no possible amount of folate could exhaust 500 mcg of circulating active b12s. As far as specifically exhausting available active cobalamins in the CSF, since so many with CFS/FMS/MS/Parkinson's has low CFS cobalamin levels according to research I really don't know. But probably not longer than the first few days. There seems to be two different effectiveness thresholds in the brain and spinal. There is the operational, much mood, neurotransmitters and such that correct with ordinary sublingual doses and actual remyelination of nerves and repair of damage takes a much higher dose. The high dose Japanese research mentions "upregulating neurological healing" effect of MeCbl.

Is 50mg the amount needed to overcome folate insufficiency symptoms?

 

[ahmo]

ahmo thank you so much for the help. how much b12 were you taking when the folate increased your histamines?
sounds like a methyl trap - which im afraid of myself, when taking so much folate.. ill shoot to get 20 mg a day of mb12.. and also some AdoCbl ..

regarding the mast cell theory. its definitely a big part of this.. but, methylation is what takes out histamine at the root, its the system that takes it out - and i know methylation messed up my histamine, and yours.
but still, i wish there was a medicine that just made the mast cells handle the histamine well.

I've been taking 2 mg Enzymatic Thpy and 3 mg (1/3 cap) Dibencozide for some months. I'd been taking 2 methylfolate, so 1 mg, following my midday adB12, and 1 early AM w/ the ET B12, also for some months. Earlier I'd overmethylated twice, once each w/ methylfolate and B12, before I understood this issue. I'm now about to start reducing my B's and see if I can decrease this K+/mg need.

Fredd:

actual remyelination of nerves and repair of damage takes a much higher dose. The high dose Japanese research mentions "upregulating neurological healing" effect of MeCbl.

Do you know what sort of doses this would be? And how you know if demylination? I continue to have what seems to be neurological weakness and some pain in my arms, tho it's far better than it used to be. Thanks. ahmo

 

[ahmo]

GenDylan, I've also just decreased my TMG. I think my major detox a couple weeks ago has really altered my needs. I'm also trialling 1/2 dose of B1. I really had a sense of over-excitement yesterday, time to tune things down.

Freddd, on second thought, I doubt this is demyelination, rather some form of inflammation. cheers, ahmo

 

[cph13]

Hi Valentijn,

REALLY?

Folate (from folic acid and QUATREFOLIC (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid glucosamine salt)
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-B-Right-100-Capsules/110

@ freddd, It seems from what U wrote above to @Valentijn that I'm ok with this product but please ANYONE check this out. Due to an error on my swanson Order this is what I purchased:
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swa...ethyltetrahydrofolic-acid-800-mcg-30-veg-caps
@2 for $4.99..I looked up the supplier and this is who/what it is
http://www.gnosis-bio.com/news_EFSA_positive_scientific_opinion_Quatrefolic.php So does that mean I'm OK with taking it instead of my usual Solgar - folate. I am taking 5X800mg all at once for 2 days now (w 4 mb12-enzy). I really don't want to mess up here. The word "ACID" is freaking me out. I'm hoping that the increase in folate will help the mood. Thanks so much for advise. I will be ordering the solgar asap. xoC

 

[Freddd]

@ freddd, It seems from what U wrote above to @Valentijn that I'm ok with this product but please ANYONE check this out. Due to an error on my swanson Order this is what I purchased:
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swa...ethyltetrahydrofolic-acid-800-mcg-30-veg-caps
@2 for $4.99..I looked up the supplier and this is who/what it is
http://www.gnosis-bio.com/news_EFSA_positive_scientific_opinion_Quatrefolic.php So does that mean I'm OK with taking it instead of my usual Solgar - folate. I am taking 5X800mg all at once for 2 days now (w 4 mb12-enzy). I really don't want to mess up here. The word "ACID" is freaking me out. I'm hoping that the increase in folate will help the mood. Thanks so much for advise. I will be ordering the solgar asap. xoC

Hi Cph13,

Sounds like it could be just fine. I've never tried it but this is a very attractive price and I suspect that I am going to order some quantity to try out myself unless I hear negative reports. For me a good report is that it works like gangbusters, corrects mood and causes low potassium and donut hole paradoxical folate insufficiency. Doing nothing detectable isn't useful to me. I'm always looking at something that might work equally or better or differently sometimes.

 

[Freddd]

GenDylan, I've also just decreased my TMG. I think my major detox a couple weeks ago has really altered my needs. I'm also trialling 1/2 dose of B1. I really had a sense of over-excitement yesterday, time to tune things down.

Freddd, on second thought, I doubt this is demyelination, rather some form of inflammation. cheers, ahmo

For inflammation, More AdoCbl and zinc might be helpful. Or maybe the same amount but spread out across the day or something.

 

[Violeta]

ahmo thank you so much for the help. how much b12 were you taking when the folate increased your histamines?
sounds like a methyl trap - which im afraid of myself, when taking so much folate.. ill shoot to get 20 mg a day of mb12.. and also some AdoCbl ..

regarding the mast cell theory. its definitely a big part of this.. but, methylation is what takes out histamine at the root, its the system that takes it out - and i know methylation messed up my histamine, and yours.
but still, i wish there was a medicine that just made the mast cells handle the histamine well.

Reishi is known to inhibit release of histimines from mast cells.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2013/feb2013_how-reishi-combats-aging_01.htm

 

[S.A.]

Hi Soporificat,

In the past decade I have seen several different causes for anxiety augmentation. There is an effect that affects some people to a degree but rarely just completely intolerable. It has to do with the ratio of AdoCbl to MeCbl. Sometimes when that gets out of balance, it has caused some anxiety and irritability.

Another thong that happens is that some people with a specific damage in the limbic system (part of the brain that affects a lot of emotions and such) when they start B12, especially AdoCbl. If the person is not taking l-carnitine fumarate, the AdoCbl effect often isn't too intense and tends to end in a few days as with AdoCbl it is a one or two time change usually, doesn't increase with the next AdoCbl dose and wears off after a while. However, If a person takes even a small dose of carnitine and goes through the roof with anxiety, panic, fear , anger etc. Interestingly sometimes TMG can take the edge off, shifting the balance like MeCbl. It is possible to microdose carnitine. There are those who have managed to microtitrate the carnitine and find that the anxiety diminishes over time as the nerves appear to heal.

Does any of this sound like it is similar to yours. It isn't a BAD sign. It's an indication of severity of deficiency and some of the damage which MIGHT be healable.

Just wondering if this plays out with people with the COMT gene variant since people with it exhibit extreme anxiety and/or anger when methylation begins to increase. I had heard that TMG helped.

 

[Freddd]

Just wondering if this plays out with people with the COMT gene variant since people with it exhibit extreme anxiety and/or anger when methylation begins to increase. I had heard that TMG helped.

Hi SA,

In my experience, the anxiety-anger activation happens with ATP startup. Though any of the 4 items can deadlock ATP production, carnitine appears to produce the very large hyper reaction most often. I have no idea of any of the genes. TMG can help take the ATP edge off. probably by shifting balance.

 

[Violeta]

Is it possible that the carnitine is stimulating too much adrenaline?

or

Is it possible that activating ATP startup is causing temporary glucose shortage and low blood sugar? You know how low blood sugar can make you feel!

 

[S.A.]

Hi SA,

In my experience, the anxiety-anger activation happens with ATP startup. Though any of the 4 items can deadlock ATP production, carnitine appears to produce the very large hyper reaction most often. I have no idea of any of the genes. TMG can help take the ATP edge off. probably by shifting balance.

Hmmm, connections bells dinging in my head over how this fits snuggly with some of the other issues, but will have to mull and research after the holidays. We'll be off everything between Christmas and New Year in order to have follow up NutrEval. Will be adding l carnitine officially then and think I'll need to slowly titrate up. Thanks for all this!