MS is still being claimed as partially psychogenic!

[alex3619]

Oh dear, psychogenic medicine is really about the gaps in knowledge. Its STILL being claimed that MS has psychogenic components.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...hen-the-mind-causes-real-pain/article9265237/

Canadian expert Anthony Lang, director of the division of neurology at the University of Toronto, says the prevalence of psychogenic illnesses may be greatly underestimated. Even patients who have organic neurological problems, such as Parkinson’s disease or multiple sclerosis, often have what is called “psychogenic overlay” or “functional overlay,” where they experience enhanced symptoms or additional symptoms that are unrelated to their primary problem, he says.

In some cases, the underlying psychological triggers are never found. For this reason, Lang and other experts are arguing that the label “psychogenic” should be scrapped in favour of the term “functional neurological disorders.”

The good news is that it is possible for patients to make a full recovery with proper treatment, which may include medication, psychotherapy and physiotherapy. But Lang notes that an early diagnosis is important; continuous testing and consultations tend to reinforce and prolong the illness, he says.

​

(My bolding)

I do note that "functional neurological disorders" is becoming a common buzzphrase used in the UK according to the reports I have been getting.

Evidence for psychobabble is like the man on the stairs, who wasn't there:

The other day upon the stair,
I saw a man who wasn't there,
He wasn't there again today,
My gosh I wish he'd go away!

This started as a post at: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...gue-syndrome-a-meme-18-june-2014.30944/page-8

We need to understand what happened to psychogenic claims in MS, and are still happening, its the best example we have of what is going on in ME but with the perspective of maybe forty years advances in medical science over what ME has.

 

[ahmo]

:thumbdown:

 

[WillowJ]

this sounds like an argument for Bodily Distress Syndrome or Somatic Symptom Disorder:
http://dxrevisionwatch.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/bds_ssd-comp1.png?w=522&h=603

 

[SOC]

In some cases, the underlying psychological triggers are never found.

We have no evidence that the symptoms are anything but exactly what they appear -- physical symptoms. We don't even have evidence of a psychological trigger that might be hypothesized to be the reason for these imaginary symptoms. Somehow these imaginary symptoms appeared out of nowhere for no apparent reason. But we know they're imaginary because....uh... we say so.

The man on the stair who isn't there indeed.

Once again I ask -- who exactly is delusional here?

 

[heapsreal]

helps increase business for the psychobabblers.

 

[rosie26]

They like to murk things up and cause less clarity.

 

[chipmunk1]

Now it's obvious that we are in a psychobubble.. beware!!

 

[Sidereal]

Neurology journals are full of this trash. They decide that neurological disease x causes symptoms y and z. The accepted symptoms are taught in medical school textbooks and diagnostic guidelines. If they bother to keep up with the research literature, which most of them don't, they might also be aware that neurological disease is characterised by not just gross anatomical changes in the brain that we can see on our primitive imaging techniques but also cellular level metabolic/mitochondrial dysfunction which we don't understand very well but which could plausibly account for any neuropsychiatric presentation. But never mind that arcane stuff. That knowledge is compartmentalised and deemed too novel and exploratory to be clinically relevant.

So if a patient exhibits additional symptoms in the clinic, something that falls outside of what we can see on your MRI, then this is a sign of somatisation, borderline personality disorder, stress, anxiety, unconscious psychosexual conflicts, trying bolster state benefits claims... <------ take your pick. They then write a bunch of articles, apparently without a hint of self-awareness or irony, about the high prevalence of "functional somatic syndromes" in neurological disorders even though our understanding of the workings of the central nervous system is on a par with how well we understood the cardiovascular system in 1600 AD.

 

[justy]

I wonder if the MS society is aware of this, and whether they have a response?

 

[chipmunk1]

Even patients who have organic neurological problems, such as Parkinson’s disease or multiple sclerosis, often have what is called “psychogenic overlay”

They got it wrong:

[Satire].MS is a psychogenic disease with an organic "neurological overlay". [Satire].

 

[alex3619]

They got it wrong:

MS is a psychogenic disease with an organic "neurological overlay".

You need to be clear when you are being sarcastic, I learned that the hard way. Many will understand, but some will take it the wrong way. I use labels like [Sarcasm] or [Satire]. Someone in deep brain fog might be able to read a statement, but not pick up on the subtleties.

 

[chipmunk1]

from the article:

Psychogenic illnesses, formerly known as “hysteria” and also known as “conversion disorder,” are illnesses that may involve a range of neurological symptoms, from movement disorders to blindness and pain, but for which there are no physical explanations.

Once considered a rare medical phenomenon, psychogenic illnesses, believed to be triggered by psychiatric or psychological issues, are more common than thought, some specialists suggest. And research is proving that there are clear differences in the brain activity of those with psychogenic illnesses, providing evidence that people’s thoughts and emotions can have a profound effect on their physical state

What they found was that both groups of dystonia patients had abnormal activity in the motor cortex of the brain, which controls voluntary movement, and the striatum, which acts as a relay station. But there were marked differences between the two; patients with organic dystonia had overactive motor cortexes and underactive striata, while patients with psychogenic dystonia had underactive motor cortexes and overactive striata.

“Both sets of patients were very, very abnormal,

They arent't contradicting themselves here?

There are no organic explanations for the symptoms yet scans show abnormalities in brain activity?

They admit that brain scans show very abnormal activity and they claim there is no evidence of medical illness.

So epilepsy isn't an organic disease?

The psychogenic diagnosis

How can you distinguish psychogenic symptoms from organic ones, which have explainable physical causes?

One possible sign is the sudden onset and sudden resolution of symptoms, says Dr. Robert Chen, a professor of neurology at the University of Toronto. The symptoms may also be incongruent; for instance, patients may experience sensory problems that do not fit with known nerve distribution.

Dr. Anthony Lang, director of the division of neurology at U of T, says specialists can also conduct specific tests. For example, when asked to perform certain complex tasks, patients may experience a change in the frequency of their tremors, whereas individuals with organic illnesses, such as Parkinson’s disease, exhibit no change.

At least they admit that they have no reliable test to distinguish between "psychogenic" and "organic" disease.

It gets even better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia

Primary dystonia is suspected when the dystonia is the only sign and there is no identifiable cause or structural abnormality in the central nervous system. It is suspected to be caused by a pathology of the central nervous system, likely originating in those parts of the brain concerned with motor function, such as the basal ganglia, and the GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) producing Purkinje neurons. The precise cause of primary dystonia is unknown. In many cases it may involve some genetic predisposition towards the disorder combined with environmental conditions.[citation needed]

Direct symptoms may be accompanied by secondary effects of the continuous muscle and brain activity, including disturbed sleep patterns, exhaustion, mood swings, mental stress, difficulty concentrating, blurred vision, digestive problems, and short temper. People with dystonia may also become depressed and find great difficulty adapting their activities and livelihood to a progressing disability. Side-effects from treatment and medications can also present challenges in normal activities

Even organic dystonia has often no identifiable pathology and often causes psychological symptoms. Why isn't this one psychogenic then?

How can they differentiate between the two? Well most likely they just roll the dice and then call it "science"

You get the feeling "psychogenic" stands for: "the patient's disease's differs from what i learned in medical school so i will look for character flaws and weaknesses and if i find some it's psychological"

 

[SOC]

And research is proving that there are clear differences in the brain activity of those with psychogenic illnesses, providing evidence that people’s thoughts and emotions can have a profound effect on their physical state

Wait a minute -- first we assume (because we have no objective evidence to prove this) that the condition is psychogenic, then we claim that any physical abnormalities must be caused by the the patient's thoughts and emotions because the condition is psychogenic.

Let's see if we can work with the evidence without using circular reasoning. Hypothesis: the patients have abnormal brain activity because there's a physical condition causing abnormal brain activity. Hey, look at that! No need to assume a magical ability on the part of the patient to unconsciously affect physical phenomena they can't even detect without expensive medical equipment.

Logic, people! Use logic!

 

[lansbergen]

Let's see if we can work with the evidence without using circular reasoning. Hypothesis: the patients have abnormal brain activity because there's a physical condition causing abnormal brain activity. Hey, look at that! No need to assume a magical ability on the part of the patient to unconsciously affect physical phenomena they can't even detect without expensive medical equipment.

Logic, people! Use logic!

To difficult for them.

 

[chipmunk1]

Once considered a rare medical phenomenon, psychogenic illnesses, believed to be triggered by psychiatric or psychological issues, are more common than thought, some specialists suggest

It's 1890 again and we have re-discovered freudian "Hysteria". Medicine has evolved backwards.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-17/freud-s-hysteria-theory-backed-by-patients-brain-scans.html

Sigmund Freud may have been right about repressed memories causing hysteria.

Scientists at King’s CollegeLondon and the University of Melbourne have found, using brain scans, that psychological stress may be to blame for unexplained physical symptoms, including paralysis and seizures

“Giving people psychotherapy is in a way the orthodox solution, but it’s kind of fallen out of favor because there hasn’t been this kind of evidence to support it,” Kanaan said.

“I certainly liked Freud from the first moment I read him,” he said. “This has given me more reason to think that he might have been right.”

At least they admit that there wasn't any evidence to support this nonsense but only because they believe they have found some evidence.

Doctors need to stop this ASAP. Freud died long time ago. He was a coke addict who liked to tell stories and exploited patients for profit.

Conversion disorder is clearly a case of "Freud per Proxy."

 

[alex3619]

Wait a minute -- first we assume (because we have no objective evidence to prove this) that the condition is psychogenic, then we claim that any physical abnormalities must be caused by the the patient's thoughts and emotions because the condition is psychogenic.

Let's see if we can work with the evidence without using circular reasoning. Hypothesis: the patients have abnormal brain activity because there's a physical condition causing abnormal brain activity. Hey, look at that! No need to assume a magical ability on the part of the patient to unconsciously affect physical phenomena they can't even detect without expensive medical equipment.

Logic, people! Use logic!

This is what happened in ME and CFS as well. Hormone issues, like cortisol? Psychogenic. Any other issues? Psychogenic. Once they go down this path they never let up, like a Terminator.

Circular reasoning and the psychogenic fallacy are two of their favourites.

In case anyone has not read of the psychogenic fallacy, here is a link to my blog on it:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/the-witch-the-python-the-siren-and-the-bunny.1149/

 

[biophile]

I cannot find the reference right now, but during the DSM-5 debate I remember reading that neurological patients have a 3 fold or so increased risk of reporting "functional" symptoms which are supposedly unrelated to their disease. Perhaps they need to start reconsidering or redefining possible symptoms for, or influences from, some diseases?

Fibromyalgia occurs in a relatively high proportion of patients with autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and a few others. Are we supposed to believe that is just a coincidence and these patients have an unrelated "functional" illness? Or is it more likely that FM is a disease which overlaps in pathophysiology and/or symptoms of chronic pain in other diseases?

Emotional and behavioural disturbances are also more common in neurological diseases, since emotion and behaviour are regulated by the brain afterall. Acting as if they are just unrelated hysterical overlays is a sloppy oversight.

 

[chipmunk1]

http://multiplesclerosis.net/living-with-ms/portable-history-ms/

In the late 19th century, Freud and his peers believed that female hysteria could only be cured by masturbating the patient and inducing orgasm, and in talk therapy, by revealing the woman’s unconscious loneliness and guilt that stemmed from playing a passive and restrictive role in relationships and society.16,17

During the 19th century, hysteria had been a catch-all diagnosis for a hundred different symptoms which included paralysis, numbness, mood disorder, pain, and digestive problems. Over the next century, depression, anxiety, migraine, and conversion disorder (formerly known as hysteria)18 would become better understood clinically, some identifiable via autopsy, and later, with brain scans. In the 20th century, conversion disorder, migraine and mood disorders would number among the differential diagnoses for Multiple Sclerosis and other autoimmune diseases.19

The upside of this is that psychological disorders are better treated now and can be distinguished as secondary conditions to illnesses such as MS, stroke and heart disease.

The downside is that many neurologists and internists still use conversion disorder (hysteria with physical symptoms) as a catch-all diagnosis for patients who are having their first MS attack. Many of us can attest to this first-hand, running the gauntlet of doctors who dismiss our weakness, numbness and brain fog as manifestations of mere stress, panic attacks, and depression, including yours truly.

My own anecdotal evidence sounds the echoes of Victorian-era attitudes towards women and illness and goes thusly:

In 1998, suffering symptoms that would turn out to be my first MS attack, I visited my PCP, who was a 30-year-old woman. I described and demonstrated my numbness, weakness, and foot drop, as well as a breathing problem that would later send me to the ER. Her first question was: “Do you ever have panic attacks?” Flabbergasted by this strange question, I denied ever having had one. “Well, I’m not going to give you steroids,” she went on, “because you came to me last month for an anti-depressant, and steroids can worsen depression.” Distressed, I voiced my concern that she wasn’t going to try to help me.

She stood over me, and wearing a look of mild contempt, chose my appointment time to express her view that women are basically hysterical, misbegotten creatures whose neurotic predispositions make it impossible for them to be taken seriously. She then turned her back on me and left the room.

Two weeks later, I saw a 65-year-old male neurologist who interviewed and tested me thoroughly. He did not offer to induce orgasm to assuage my feelings of powerlessness in a patriarchal society. Instead, he put me in the hospital for round-the-clock IV steroids and told me he was 90% sure I had MS.

 

[Cheshire]

from the article:

What they found was that both groups of dystonia patients had abnormal activity in the motor cortex of the brain, which controls voluntary movement, and the striatum, which acts as a relay station. But there were marked differences between the two; patients with organic dystonia had overactive motor cortexes and underactive striata, while patients with psychogenic dystonia had underactive motor cortexes and overactive striata.

“Both sets of patients were very, very abnormal,



They arent't contradicting themselves here?

There are no organic explanations for the symptoms yet scans show abnormalities in brain activity?

They admit that brain scans show very abnormal activity and they claim there is no evidence of medical illness.

So epilepsy isn't an organic disease?

That's what Peter White says there: http://issuu.com/maxhead/docs/unum_cmo_report_2002

So it's obvious, in one case it's organic, in the other one, it's just that their experiment of symptoms has a neurological correlate.

 

[natasa778]

When faced with symptoms and diseases that cannot be fully explained and successfully treated doctors have two options:

1. admit the limits of their knowledge and expertise, and the limits of current medical science/knowledge in general (this option is good for doc's karma but bad for their ego and feelings of supremacy and power)

2. claim that the illness is imaginary, and that patient's the symptoms caused by their thoughts and emotions (bad for doc's karma, but excellent for their ego and maintaining sense of supremacy)