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Mitochondrial encephalomyopathy, lactic acidosis, and stroke-like episodes (MELAS)

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Yesterday I had my appointment with an internist from the mitochondrial disease clinic. It went very well - he's investigating things seriously.

He's running some blood and urine tests which look for certain alterations regarding amino acids, fatty acids, and some other things which can occur with mitochondrial disease. These are a bit hit-and-miss in being abnormal in mitochondrial disease patients, but if it's a "hit" then it can indicate a diagnosis without doing the more aggressive testing.

Mitochondrial DNA is also being sequenced from my urine sample. This can miss mutated mitochondrial DNA, but rarely does when the mutants are wide-spread and symptoms are pronounced. It has about a 4-5% false-negative rate, so again can be a painless way to confirm a genetic mitochondrial disease, even if it can't fully rule one out. It's much more accurate than blood, when looking for heteroplasmic mutations.

Blood lactate was also tested, which can also be a bit of a hit-and-miss. It's often normal in patients with mitochondrial disease much of the time, but is more likely to be abnormal following exertion. So the internist had a sample taken, then I walked up and down a huge flight of stairs, then another sample. I'm not sure what that will turn up, since I haven't had any large elevations from home testing after moderate exertion, just random elevations at bed time, and weird ongoing bursts after a 4 minute step test I did. I measured at bed time again last night, and it was elevated, so there's a good chance my lab values will have been high as well.

The impression I got is that this isn't the end of testing unless it comes up positive for a mutation or other strong indication in my blood or urine. If it is negative, more aggressive testing can be done. The internist did seem to think that mitochondrial dysfunction was a definitely possibility, though the cause and diagnosis couldn't be determined. It might be from the mitochondrial DNA, or other DNA involving mitochondrial reactions, or other diseases which result in reduced mitochondrial activity as a downstream effect. So perhaps he'd be interested in looking into those more even if my mitochondrial DNA is normal.

The DNA testing takes 6-7 weeks, so my next appointment is in 8 weeks. The hospital has secure online access for patients, so I can see most of my results there. Though I need to call a week before the appointment, to make sure results are in and we don't wast a long drive, since the DNA results won't be on there. Not surprising, since DNA files can get pretty huge. Mitochondrial DNA is very short compared to chromosomal DNA, but since it's testing for heteroplasmic mutations, it might contain dozens of readings of it. Anyhow, it'd be hard for them to store or upload a lot of that data electronically.

So it was a very good appointment, even if not exactly the outcome I wanted, which would be more aggressive testing immediately. It involved 3 hours at the hospital though, with an hour for registration, talking to nurses, height and weight checked, etc, then an hour in the actual appointment, and another hour for peeing, EKG, blood draws, and stairs. And about 3 hours of driving total, so it was a long and really exhausting day. My heart rate was already high when we got there, and by the time we got home it was 100-110 while lying on the couch. So I'm pretty wiped out currently, and expecting a full crash in a few hours.
 
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Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
Messages
1,184
Location
Bristol
- he's investigating things seriously.
Sad that this is a thing, but it is a thing
It's much more accurate than blood, when looking for heteroplasmic mutations.
Interesting about urine testing
other diseases which result in reduced mitochondrial activity as a downstream effect.
What like ME?! ;)
So it was a very good appointment, even if not exactly the outcome I wanted, which would be more aggressive testing immediately.
The timescale gets very frustrating doesn't it? Mind you this sounds quicker than NHS. If he finds something with this you'll be relieved you didn't have aggressive testing though. Will that be a muscle biopsy? My next test will be DNA testing or muscle biopsy, DNA testing definitely seems preferable to me!
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
If he finds something with this you'll be relieved you didn't have aggressive testing though. Will that be a muscle biopsy?
Yes, it could be. And/or spinal tap for CSF lactate, and maybe an MRI.

My next test will be DNA testing or muscle biopsy, DNA testing definitely seems preferable to me
For heteroplasmic mutations, normal DNA blood testing will usually fail to find them. So the mitochondrial DNA testing is often done from the muscle biopsy itself :p Urine testing is a decent alternative because urine will contain cells shed from the epithelium that are much more likely to contain the mutations than blood is. But yes, muscle biopsies don't sound fun!
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
My first batch of test results are available online - basically the stuff which is run on a little machine in the clinic and takes about 10 minutes. So it took them about a week to enter it into the system after getting results.
blood gas results.jpg


The first batch was taken a couple minutes before I walked up and down a big-ass flight of stairs at the hospital, as quickly as I safely could. My heart rate had already been elevated for several hours at that point, in the 95-105 range when seated with feet up.

The second batch was collected about 5 minutes after the stair climbing, since that's about when lactate production should peak. So it's not really odd that it's elevated. But I also did a home lactate test around 10pm that night, with a value of 2.8. It should have been fully back to normal by then.

That's a pretty normal glucose range for me, now that I have diabetes. I'd last eaten 4-5 hours earlier.

Not sure what the slightly elevated calcium means. But probably not a worry, since it was in the normal range 10 minutes later.

PCO2 (partial pressure of carbon dioxide) was only borderline on the 2nd test, but it was a big drop ... and might indicated that it continued going lower after the blood draw, or would have with more exertion, etc. Again, not sure what that means. Wikipedia says low values indicate hyperventilation - well, I was certainly breathing fast to catch my breath after the stair climbing. So it might be normal that that is low after exertion.

PO2 (partial pressure of oxygen, dissolved oxygen, oxygen saturation) is usually not measured from a vein. I'm wondering if this entire panel of tests is usually run with a finger sample instead of the venous sample they used for me. So I'm not sure if these are actually abnormal.

O2 saturation percentage and O2 fraction both seem to be quite low, even for a venous sample. But it's hard to tell, since there's not a lot of easy to find data about what a normal range is.
 
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ryan31337

Senior Member
Messages
664
Location
South East, England
PCO2 (partial pressure of carbon dioxide) was only borderline on the 2nd test, but it was a big drop ... and might indicated that it continued going lower after the blood draw, or would have with more exertion, etc. Again, not sure what that means. Wikipedia says low values indicate hyperventilation - well, I was certainly breathing fast to catch my breath after the stair climbing. So it might be normal that that is low after exertion.

It's normal for PCO2 to drop after ventilatory threshold (~anerobic threshold) up to VO2max. I'm used to looking at PETCO2 values, which are lower relative to PCO2, but I don't think you're in much danger of being accused of hyperventilation with those figures after relatively strenuous exercise.

Thanks for sharing the results, very interesting!
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Valentijn Is this test similar to an arterial blood gas test? Am curious for a reason (but don't want to get off track in case they are totally unrelated)!

Will the doctor be interpreting the results for you at another appt?
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
@Valentijn Is this test similar to an arterial blood gas test? Am curious for a reason (but don't want to get off track in case they are totally unrelated)!

Will the doctor be interpreting the results for you at another appt?
I think it was ... it was taken from a blood sample from the vein, however.

Presumably he'll have a better idea of what they mean :p My next appointment with him in in mid July.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Based on https://acutecaretesting.org/en/articles/central-venous-blood-gas-analysis it looks like the values in my results are already given with venous ranges. So my PO2 is indeed quite low.

And several sources say the venous O2 saturation should be around 70-75%, so that's looking ridiculously low as well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19426141 says the tourniquet used for drawing blood shouldn't affect those values.

I had my finger pulse oximeter with me during the visit, and my saturation was staying at 95% or above when I checked it. Though it typically triggers tachycardia when mine is under 98%, and it was doing this during the visit. Finger pulse oximeters aren't able to distinguish between oxygen and other gases, but my other venous blood gases looked pretty normal. So maybe my arterial blood is fine, but gets excessively de-oxygenated before returning to the lungs?

Low oxygen with low or normal CO2 is typically classified as Type 1 Respiratory Failure. Though arterial oxygen levels should be low then as well. I have no idea what's going on, or why :p
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,857
Location
Brisbane, Australia
PO2 (partial pressure of oxygen, dissolved oxygen, oxygen saturation) is usually not measured from a vein. I'm wondering if this entire panel of tests is usually run with a finger sample instead of the venous sample they used for me. So I'm not sure if these are actually abnormal.
I've been looking into hypoxia as a cause of a lot of complications in chronic disorders and was interested to note that even a small drop in PO2 can have extreme effect on some people but you might be interested to know that this revolves a lot around around HIF-1 (hypoxia inducible factor 1) and I see that HIF-1 is implicated as one of the novel master regulators for reconfiguration of nuclear gene expression in response to the MELAS mutation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21708074

There are a number of prolyl hydroxylase inhibitors under development to address the dysfunction our oxygen sensor mechanism suffers under hypoxic conditions.
https://www.jci.org/articles/view/90055

Just curious what your renal function is like as renal dysfunction is increasingly recognized as a potential clinical feature of MELAS.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22909780
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Just curious what your renal function is like as renal dysfunction is increasingly recognized as a potential clinical feature of MELAS.
Tests always look fine, though there's usually traces of blood in my urine when it's tested.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I've been looking into hypoxia as a cause of a lot of complications in chronic disorders and was interested to note that even a small drop in PO2 can have extreme effect on some people but you might be interested to know that this revolves a lot around around HIF-1 (hypoxia inducible factor 1) and I see that HIF-1 is implicated as one of the novel master regulators for reconfiguration of nuclear gene expression in response to the MELAS mutation.
Yes, it's interesting how changes in cellular function can be triggered by low oxygen. Though I'm not sure that applies when it's only venous blood that is overly depleted, if arterial blood is fine.

One relevant concept I've come across is "dysoxia", which is hypoxia that's severe enough to cause problems. http://www.icumed.com/media/402627/m1-1430-reyer-scvo2-oximetry-white-paper-rev02-web.pdf suggests that under 50% venous oxygen saturation indicates "exhaustion of extraction":
venous O2 saturation.jpg


But this would seem to mean that I should have been in really bad shape with the 24% result before exercise. Maybe it was an error? Though PO2 was also pretty dismal. And I had some values getting pretty close to acidosis, but not crossing it. A lot of sites list a range of -2 to 2 for Base Excess, and my -2.5 would be acidic enough to qualify by that standard.

Something else I came across is that normal arterial oxygen combined with low venous oxygen can be due to increased oxygen uptake by tissues. This can happen due to elevations in lactate, but my lactate wasn't too high at that point. There's other causes too, though I haven't looked into it yet.
 

Paralee

Senior Member
Messages
571
Location
USA
@Valentijn , I can't help commenting on the calcium level. I know it doesn't seem high but it's the ionized calcium and I can't help but mention getting a blood regular calcium and parathyroid hormone (pth) drawn at the same time. There's so many people with hyperparathyroidism with their regular blood calcium in the normal nine's. And definitely 10's. You've probably eliminated that already, but my ionized was always normal and I still had it...just a thought.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,857
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Tests always look fine, though there's usually traces of blood in my urine when it's tested.
In a roundabout way, that's how come I'm looking into a hypoxia angle. I have Nutcracker Syndrome (NS), among other things (probably have Superior Mesentery Artery Syndrome too), but don't have blood in the urine, a common finding but atypical thing, even in those with having a fully compressed left renal vein (mine is about 90% reduced).

I don't know what degree of renal impairment it takes but erythropoietin (EPO) is made in the kidney and impacts on hypoxia and our oxygen sensing mechanisms as it stimulates erythrocyte production which, in turn, affects the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. EPO production is primarily stimulated by hypoxia, which, depending on severity, increases serum EPO levels up to several hundred-fold. PO2 is critical for the regulation of renal EPO synthesis so I'm trying to piece together what the consequences are with NS and whether or not it's worth asking the Vascular specialist to do an arterial blood gas test done (as the gold standard test) for PO2, and also test for EPO levels in the absence of anemia (NS can cause rena anemia.

I gather that there could be similar complications in MELAS when there is kidney dysfunction. With signs of blood in the urine though, make sure it's not to do with having a compressed left renal vein or enlarged enlarged pelvic or left ovarian veins as a sign that blood flow is refluxing, the symptoms of which can can range from not noticeable to severely disabling.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I had my followup appointment over a month ago, and I fear that I'm getting a bit of a brush off, considering the circumstances.

Lactate wasn't particularly high after walking up and down a huge flight of stairs, but it was still elevated (even higher) 6 hours later. Alanine was elevated, but the alanine/lysine ratio was normal, and C18:1 and C18:2 fatty acids were elevated despite not getting much of them in my normal diet. The doctor had a genetic test run from a urine sample, since that is much more likely to find a heteroplasmic mutation than a blood sample, and that came back negative. But I checked their website just now, and discovered that they only test for the single most common mutation in urine (3243) :meh:

The mitochondrial clinician also seems to think that being of normal height (for an American, not a Dutchie) makes MELAS very unlikely, and that MELAS patients are typically underweight, not overweight. But research of adult mixed mitochondrial disease patients showed half were overweight, so I think he was making some inappropriate assumptions based on how MELAS presents in infancy or early childhood, versus in adults.

So he's saying MELAS is ruled out, and won't recommend a muscle biopsy and genetic test of it, but due to the alanine and fatty acids being elevated, he's ordered CPT2 genetic testing (blood) for a possible carnitine deficiency. The results of my urine and blood tests haven't been made available to me directly either (just the alanine and fatty acids in a letter to my referring endocrinologist), despite that that hospital has an online service for patients to access them. So I don't know if there were normal results which really do rule out MELAS. And I don't fully trust that the other results were all normal, or that the testing was as extensive as implied.

The followup phone appointment for the CPT2 test is in 2 weeks. When I spoke to the mitochondrial clinician at the prior followup appointment, he said he had no recommendations on what to do next, just that that's the end for me regarding the referral to the clinic. So I guess I need to figure out what to do next.

I see my endocrinologist in two days, so I I'll ask her what she thinks. An option is "go private" through the same hospital, and pay out of pocket for appropriate testing instead of going through the national insured system. I do have a doctor in the US who would probably order the tests, and the Dutch mitochondrial clinic deals with a lot of foreign patients and doctors, so that shouldn't be a problem. They even have an order form in English :p I have no idea how much that would cost - we'd have to call them to find out.

Or I could get whole exome testing done, which is down to US$400 now. Then run the results myself or using a paid service. That might not help with treatment here though, since the Dutch system is quite good at ignoring test results that don't originate from the national system. Or I could go to the US and pay even more for testing and seeing a specialist.

I'm actually a bit furious that the urine testing was only for a single SNP :mad:
 
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Messages
366
Hello,
I'm sorry to hear that.

I also had elevated alanine in a blood amino acid test. In a urine test I had elevated unmetabolized fatty acids and they recommended vitamin B2 and carnitine.

Do you know how high alanine levels relate to alanine transaminase activity (ALT)? I guess high ALT activity would cause high alanine by conversion from glutamate+pyruvate? I just don't read it anywhere explicitly and am unsure because the enzyme goes in both directions..