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Mind/Brain and ME theorising

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Are you suggesting you need quantum effects which I think Roger Penrose suggested a few years ago or are you just referring to the scale and detail you feel is required?

Roger is a brilliant mathematician but he does not understand quantum theory. That may sound severe but if he understood quantum theory he would not have asked in his book why things do not look fuzzy when the quantum world is fuzzy. This indicates that he does not understand the relation of dynamics to experience at all. The theory of Orchestrated Objective Reduction that he shares with Stuart Hameroff cannot be a scientific theory because it make s no difference to what you observe. 'Quantum effects' in this sort of sense are just a misunderstanding of the theory.

Trying to explain this would take pages and it may not be that relevant to mind/brain and ME although I am happy to discuss. Perhaps a simple thing to point out is that 'quantum level' aspects of dynamics like spin phase, which are the things that are involved in quantum entanglement and superposition are not going to be relevant because the biology has to work with non random dynamic steps in a way that allows information to be encoded classically. The way out of this that I think may be important is that spin zero Bose modes, which include the modes of acoustic vibrations and crystal order, manifest essentially classical dynamics based on quantum level features that one can essentially ignore. But they are still individual dynamic units that can relate to the universe just as much as an electron or photon.

I take my hat off to Roger and Stuart for having taken the fundamental physics of experience seriously but I sometimes wonder how they can have made such a mess of things. What is currently exciting in the field is that the microtubular structures that Stuart has been banging on about for twenty years may turn out to be the right domains after all, but not for the reasons he originally suggested.

http://www.imprint.co.uk/so-it-was-microtubules-after-all/

might amuse.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I cannot keep up with the posts but in response to Alex I would suggest that qunatum theory may only be seriously counterintuitive because we have been brainwashed by a dumbed down version of Newton. Even Newton realised that physics had to be counterintuitive in relation to common sense realism. Leibniz realised it had to look like qunatum field theory - which to me is mind blowing since he worked out the structure of the ideas two hundred years in advance without even knowing about electricity. For Leibniz quantum theory would have been entirely as expected and not in the least mysterious. Having seen Leibniz's arguments I feel the same. At the most basic level it has to do with what you have to have if you have continuous dynamic laws applied to real individual (i.e. discontinuous) units. Add in some symmetries and you get QFT.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
To make myself feel better I will quote Richard Feynman:

´If you think you understand quantum theory, you don´t understand quantum theory.´

But does this statement itself show an understanding of quantum theory?
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Wow, just watched the beginning. I thought France was the last refuge for psychoanalysis, I was plain wrong. Freud is still revered by some in the UK.

The same old story: anecdotal evidence, “I’ve seen cases of true hysteria therefore everyone with functional neurological symptoms is hysterical”. “You have to dig deep into the psyche of these people, because it’s all about repressed memories. If you don’t find anything, it’s because it’s an intra-psychic conflict, the patient can’t handle the trauma, that’s why they can’t remember”…

Mark Edwards seems rational and listening to people compared to the others…

Interesting that Mark Edwards is speaking in the lion's den here - invited to the Freud Museum to rubbish Freud - so he is probably being a bit conciliatory. I don't agree with all his modelling approaches but I am impressed that he is making it clear that he is not following the neo-Freudian model. He is also modest and sounds as if he is open to modifying his view in the light of evidence. I was favourably impressed.
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
What people tend to worry about with this sort of general explanation of experience is that it has to allow everything in the physical world to be 'conscious' - it is what is known as panexperientialist. But this does not matter because we can never test for the presence of experience anywhere other the one here and now, we can only test for the operational relations, which we call physics. Moreover, we have every reason to think that the sorts of experience we have will only occur if the incoming relation to whatever is here and now has been pre-prepared in a highly sophisticated way by a collating machine called a brain. What is a mystery is what the quantum mode that feels pain or senses the taste of basil is. It does not need to be a traditional subatomic particle or anything like that but it has to have the right relations.

Why do you ignore scale when considering the concept of consciousness? The 'consciousness' of an atom is quite different to that of an ant, or a human being, or a human society as a whole, such that it seems strange to describe it all as consciousness.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
To make myself feel better I will quote Richard Feynman:

´If you think you understand quantum theory, you don´t understand quantum theory.´

But does this statement itself show an understanding of quantum theory?

I think when he said it he was probably right. Even Feynman makes mistakes about what the theory means in his introduction to his Lectures vol 3. I suspect that it was not until the Aspect experiments sorted out the EPR problem and extensions of field theory such as Nambu-Goldstone theorem showed just how general and uncompromising the structure of the theory was that people began to see what Leibniz had predicted - that it was a theory of dynamic indivisibles and true dynamic indivisibles can have no internal structure anything like aggregate matter as we know it, not even von Neumann processes 1 and 2. What Feynman could have said is that all 'interpretations' of QM are wrong - QM needs no interpretations.
 
In my view there is one conception in particular that ME theory, and even more so the experience of living with ME, totally wipes out: Any form of dualistic mind-body conception.

I'm throwing in the issue of dualism because whenever people struggle to articulate concepts such as mind and consciousness and cognition and beliefs and representations and so on, on the one hand, with brain science on the other, it may be that this struggle is just a legacy from thousands of years of misguided dualism in Western thought. There are a few exceptions such as Spinoza or Nietzsche, but not that many more…

I think it would be a mistake to believe that we are through with this dualism. Moreover, my guess is it will keep coming back forever.

It is insidiously present even in today's neurosciences, at least in some of the literature, through what Edelman called "corticocentrism", i.e. a tendency to focus way too much on cortex structures and not enough on the brain stem/limbic system ensemble, the "value" or "hedonist" systems which root the brain in the body. In his theory of neural darwinism, connections are indeed "selected" depending on their biological value in the broadest sense. This is a far cry away from computational models of the brain (I think the image he preferred for the brain was that of a dense rain forest agitated by winds…good image...)
Damasio's work might be another example of this attempt to embody brain science.

Mind-body dualism is insidiously present also in the curative conception underlying CBT. Psychoanalysis may have many shortcomings, but Freud at least got one thing very right: the "psyche" as he conceives it obeys physiological forces (what he called the "pleasure/unpleasure principle" for instance has much to do with homeostasis).

I would even say it is present in some of today's philosophy of mind, which seem to only pay lip service to the body, as well as in philosophies overly centered on language alone - in short, everywhere thought is not related, and even subordinated to, affect. The tie to the body.

The reason I feel this dualism will never cease to come back is simple if not simplistic: because the brain processes we refer to when we use the word "mind" and its contents are experienced as immaterial rather than physical. We don't experience the mind as a muscle or an organ and hence we spontaneously don't think of it in a physiological way, unless…

… unless that very mind is knocked out!
And this is where ME teaches a lesson like few other illnesses can.

ME makes you experience how physical and bodily the "mind" really is.
How mind activity requires so much energy and can collapse.

So, though it is a bit tangential, for me the first consideration which ME theory (and experience) brings in this discussion, would be the following: This wonderful brain of ours, with its billions of neurons and connections, this "living" brain anchored in a sentient body, is as good as dead if it lacks oxygen and blood…

Cognition, representations, conceptions, beliefs, or whatever other concept pertaining to this realm, - all of these require a well-perfused and oxygenated brain to exist in the first place. Philosophy ends here! (or may start here…)

And I doubt that a therapist will ever have the power to make you "talk" oxygen back into your brain…
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
And I doubt that a therapist will ever have the power to make you "talk" oxygen back into your brain…
But can you doubt that some will try?

The dualism debate was what got this thread started from another thread so as to not sidetrack that thread.

I am a kind of physicalist monist, though with some other shades thrown in. I am not sure many here are dualist, or intentionally dualist, though there are probably a few and maybe a few more who are not sure. I have had some robust discussions about physicalist interpretations though.

Dualism is alive and well in BPS. Its core to much of the doctrine. They deny dualism as an effort to persuade, then launch into arguments based on dualist assumptions.

One of the chief arguments for the necessity of mind being grounded in the physical is indeed the finding that without properly functioning brain there is no properly functioning mind. Through much of the early history of neuroscience was about what impact brain lesions had on cognition. It can be huge. When my energy is very low my cognition is too. ME definitely impacts general cognition, plus emotions, memory, etc. So if you accept a mental aspect, regardless of what you think mental whatever actually is, you are forced into the conclusion there is a mental component to ME. Its a huge leap from there to inferring causality though. That leap is a huge part of the fallacy called the psychogenic inference.
 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
What would happen if the neural networks of a human brain were mapped 1:1 to an artificial substrate? Yes it's science-fiction, but philosophically speaking...

Assuming that it was possible at a sufficiently fine level of granularity (which sounds like the starting point for many economists!) you might have something with the potential to be human but which as it stands couldn't describe the feeling of walking barefoot on wet grass, the context or the emotions associated with it. For that you need structural coupling as @alex3619 would have it for want of a better term.

Of course, in the tradition of all good sci-fi, this is where you hook your creation up to the GIZMOTRON (apologies to Godley and Creme) which uploads a lifetime's experiences and memories which for all intents and purposes are 'real'.

But then you have to wonder - what was the point and getting back to the original post what and where is the mind in this creation? Is it in the artificial brain or brain/body or was it stored in the computer holding the memories that were then uploaded? I have my own views on that!
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
But then you have to wonder - what was the point and getting back to the original post what and where is the mind in this creation? Is it in the artificial brain or brain/body or was it stored in the computer holding the memories that were then uploaded? I have my own views on that!

That's the key question!
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
There are sophisticated cognitive models out there that make very clear distinctions between these different kinds of "beliefs". You don't need brain talk to do that. Cognition is way ahead of neuroscience on these things - just look at Seidenberg and McClelland, who in the 1990's were developing computational models of how each individual learning episode contributes to, and subtly changes our knowledge base.

I would like to get back to the issue of types of belief because I think they are relevant to the friction point between patients and scientists and also to what seems clunky about Mark Edwards's approach.

I looked at the abstract of Seidenberg and McClelland 1989. It seems to deal with the sort of connectionist systems I am familiar with from Rumelhart and McClelland, Hinton etc. I may be wrong but this does not seem to address the distinction between experienced belief and operational belief. All these connectionist models work on computers and nobody much thinks computers experience - at least anything relevant. I think we may be at cross purpose on 'levels'. The connectionist models are at a more generalised or abstracted computational level but that would not be an experiential or 'mental' or 'I feel I believe' account would it?

A toy example comes to mind (or maybe to experience). When I get 'vestibular neuronitis' and I open my eyes in bed it seems that 'my brain believes' that the world is spinning left because of vstibular nerve irritation. My eye muscles then track left and I have nystagmus. That means I see the world jerking across (I think to the right?) repeatedly. But I believe that the world is still and I have vertigo again, because my body feels stationary in bed. My thought is that all this talk of 'predictive coding', which seems to get linked to some concept of 'unconscious operational belief' in non-voluntary 'functional' disorders is actually seriously misleading. It is really a metaphor, but like all metaphors is NOT the reality (there aren't actually cats and dogs raining outside). I do not think there is any prediction in a real sense, and even if there is it is not by the brain or the mind but by one particular module, offered up for the use of another module that compares the prediction with something else. So to have a theory that says you get certain symptoms because your brain is predicting or believing somesuch is going to crash because it is not actually dynamically correct. And I suspect the predictive theory of functional dystonias may run into that trouble.

It would be great if Mark Edwards would actually join our conversation here. I think he would take the spirit of it well and my impression is that the research world get to know what we are chatting about most of the time!

I don't expect there'll ever come a time when we can localise any particular type of experience to a particular brain part. Where do emotions happen? Ar they in the bodily changes that accompany them? (e.g., heat rate increases)? Or are they in the brain responses that occur? Early psychology tried to pitch these as either/or possibilities, but of course, they are very likely to be all true. Emotional experience is likely to reflect the sum activity of a constellation of interacting and constantly changing brain and body states.

So this is where I take the other view. If experiences are real events and feelings of emotion are real events they have to happen somewhere. Otherwise they are not in the world of physical science and we are in the strange new form of dualism that @Christian Godbout has rather nicely described. We are led to think of experiences as non-local simply because all the signals coming in to the brain are purely in time. Nothing changes spatially when signals come up the spinal cord or the cranial nerves. The central interpreting apparatus has no means of allocating places to its internal events. Ironically, however, if signals are finally to be experienced as a rich set of relations at a point in time they will need to arrive in a spatial array determined by body - or at least that bit of body that is some small part of brain.

I see an interesting further dichotomy in schools of thought. I suspect we all actually think that the other person is 'dualist' whichever position we take. There are so many meanings of dualism that the word is ripe for cross-purpose. There is a school that talks of 'embodiment' in the sense of experiences being anchored to body in the bigger sense of arms and legs etc. This is linked to enactivism and certain forms of 'extended mind' although not that of Andy Clark, the inventor of the term. I agree with Ken Aizawa and Fred Adams that this view is wrong in that we know that bodily events are distal causes of experiences in the brain but do not actually constitute those experiences - simply because we can show there is a time lag and a lack of absolute co-dependence. So I agree with Christian that experience has to be embedded in a physical substrate in brain but not that it is in some way 'embedded' in bodily actions. That idea derives from Gibson, Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty I think and just isn't right on empirical grounds.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
A quick point that I agree with Woolie that the technical and interpretational issues of all the imaging techniques now available is a huge topic probably beyond this discussion. I tend to take the view that in no way do we start thinking that because there was a red blob on a FMRI picture in the paper that 'that is where the thinking was' or anything as simple as that. I see these techniques as giving us markers of differences between test situations if we are lucky and just possibly some functional flavour - according to where the blob is but mostly they will just be surrogate markers for some relationship between events that one day we might understand. The functional connectivity stuff is pretty impressive but as far as I know can only really be interpreted in very standardised multiply repeated experiments on stable normal brains or maybe where we already know about gross structural pathology. My Professor of neuro-rehabilitation friend just says its all rubbish but I am a bit more optimistic.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Why do you ignore scale when considering the concept of consciousness? The 'consciousness' of an atom is quite different to that of an ant, or a human being, or a human society as a whole, such that it seems strange to describe it all as consciousness.

I don't ignore scale, that must have been me being unclear. Interestingly I doubt atoms, ants or or human beings or societies experience. With the rather odd exception of free noble gas atoms I doubt any of these are individual dynamic units. I suspect the order goes: leptons, quarks etc., nuclei, molecules and metals, crystalline structures, and lastly the spatial asymmetries we call objects. I think there are experiences within ants and humans and within societies simply because they are within humans (no experience at a larger scale) but what their physical substrate is I do not know. Other than by analogy with the experience here, now, all these experiences can only be considered in operational terms since we will never get to be in their heres and nows.
 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
I'm sure I'm missing many subtleties here but I'm concerned with the notion of 'mind' as being a thing which can be distinguished from the brain (that's not to say that what we think of as the mind, thoughts, beliefs etc are not real and therefore if physics dictate real things must have a physical location then there should be a location where they arise).

My layman's take on it is this. The brain is an organ which processes information. It isn't alone in this but it doesn't run, lift, digest or exchange gases like other organs - it's primary role is to process information including collating and responding to information from the rest of the body. The 'mind' to me is simply the output of this processing, continuously instantiated (to borrow from OO programming but chosen deliberately) dynamically not only in response to inputs but also attention, 'values', beliefs' etc. Commonly used terms already suggest that 'mind' isn't a single stable thing (I'm minded to do X, single minded, mind the gap, mind over matter etc).

Can we locate the output of this processing in the same way we can locate the output of a pocket calculator to the LCD screen (and is that where the result emerges or just where it's displayed)?

As for beliefs I don't see them as any different from motor programs controlling movement i.e. learned, stored, quickly deployed stereotypical templates that only need a little fine tuning to adapt to any circumstances like being handed an unfamiliar cup, in other words they respond to circumstances. For argument's sake, let's say we have two stereotypical 'beliefs' that include a repertoire of appropriate behavioural responses - 'I am well' and 'I am ill'. I find it difficult to imagine that the 'I am well' belief would persist in the face of illness when all evidence suggests otherwise - not for long anyway. You may have a deep seated belief that you're invincible but no-one is. Likewise I find it hard to accept that a belied that 'I am ill' would persist against all evidence to the contrary and in contrast to most people's natural motivations. Just like motor programs - we continually test their applicability.

Enough of my 'simple minded' musings.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
The brain is an organ which processes information. It isn't alone in this but it doesn't run, lift, digest or exchange gases like other organs - it's primary role is to process information including collating and responding to information from the rest of the body. The 'mind' to me is simply the output of this processing, continuously instantiated (to borrow from OO programming but chosen deliberately) dynamically not only in response to inputs but also attention, 'values', beliefs' etc. Commonly used terms already suggest that 'mind' isn't a single stable thing (I'm minded to do X, single minded, mind the gap, mind over matter etc).

Can we locate the output of this processing in the same way we can locate the output of a pocket calculator to the LCD screen (and is that where the result emerges or just where it's displayed)?

I would buy in to that. Mind could be considered this constantly varied flowing output. I personally try to avoid talking about mind but this seems a good way. I guess my take is that this output has to be an input to something (otherwise why bother to output it) and the real hard problem is working out what it is inputting to. Whatever that is one could call an experiencing subject or, following Descartes, a soul, although this tends to confuse things. Since every stage of neural connection tends to diverge to 10,000 places one would expect there to be about 10,000 such experiencing subjects, and maybe a lot more if there are relays.

Locating the output means locating the cells that send the output signals. People tend to think they are in anterior cortex and maybe something special like dorsolateral prefrontal but nobody has nailed that. What for me is more interesting is locating where the signals co-arrive at the point of experience - which they must do otherwise there would be no experiences to report. That would be the LCD screen sort of except that it is maybe more like the input into the printer that receives all the data for the PDF to be printed?

As for beliefs I don't see them as any different from motor programs controlling movement i.e. learned, stored, quickly deployed stereotypical templates that only need a little fine tuning to adapt to any circumstances like being handed an unfamiliar cup, in other words they respond to circumstances. For argument's sake, let's say we have two stereotypical 'beliefs' that include a repertoire of appropriate behavioural responses - 'I am well' and 'I am ill'. I find it difficult to imagine that the 'I am well' belief would persist in the face of illness when all evidence suggests otherwise - not for long anyway. You may have a deep seated belief that you're invincible but no-one is. Likewise I find it hard to accept that a belied that 'I am ill' would persist against all evidence to the contrary and in contrast to most people's natural motivations. Just like motor programs - we continually test their applicability.

That makes beliefs dispositional states of memory bearing connections, which I agree works for operational beliefs. But if these are dispositional states of submodules that can be overruled if data is fed in to 'mind' that provides conflicting evidence then they may not be beliefs in the popular sense of something 'consciously held'.

The difficulty with the implausibility of believing one is ill when one is well and vice versa is that this very much happens, if with a slightly different slant. When my wife was ill she believed with both brain and mind that she had intestinal obstruction and that the police were watching her through the television and that her death was inevitable - and a lot more. And this was all as a result of a drug reaction. What I would say is that there was something very different about her beliefs from those I encounter in PWME - which seem to me not to be 'irrational' in that way, since they are not really reasoned beliefs so much as just sensations of distress. There is something about the word 'belief' in at least some of its usages that implies some sort of reasoning or 'having been convinced' whereas just an aberration of dispositional control does not imply that.

I guess that if a belief somehow involves 'having been convinced' it implies that it was acquired in the sort of way that we would expect to be open to unconvincing - hence the whiff of CBT.
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
I'm also loosing pace with the posts, but wanted to comment ont his one:

Jonanthan Edwards said:
Woolie said:
I don't expect there'll ever come a time when we can localise any particular type of experience to a particular brain part. Where do emotions happen? Ar they in the bodily changes that accompany them? (e.g., heat rate increases)? Or are they in the brain responses that occur? Early psychology tried to pitch these as either/or possibilities, but of course, they are very likely to be all true. Emotional experience is likely to reflect the sum activity of a constellation of interacting and constantly changing brain and body states.

So this is where I take the other view. If experiences are real events and feelings of emotion are real events they have to happen somewhere. Otherwise they are not in the world of physical science and we are in the strange new form of dualism that @@Christian Godbout has rather nicely described.

The idea of distributed mental representations is old in cognitive science. I see you had a look at some of those PDP models from the 80's and 90's? In those, a piece of knowledge is not represented in any one "unit" in the model, it is represented in patterns of interconnections in the whole model. The retrieval of that knowledge is also not represented in a single unit, but by a sequence of events that engages many units and their interconnections. (of course, these are models of cognition, not of brain function, they're not supposed to be neurally plausible, but the distributed knowledge idea is as old as that).

Similarly, recent models of working memory propose that the current content of awareness are represented by resonating activation throughout a network of interconnected units representing relevant concepts and other elements. These elements may be localised within very different brain regions. In fact, both prefrontal cortex and some region of posterior cortex are minimally required.

Turning to the brain in earnest now, once you start thinking in network terms, it seems decreasing likely that any experience would be "localised" to any one region. We might have thought like this once, but it was a long time ago now, and it didn't get us very far. I don't see that one-to-one localisation is required at all to make something "part of the world of physical science".
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
It is insidiously present even in today's neurosciences, at least in some of the literature, through what Edelman called "corticocentrism", i.e. a tendency to focus way too much on cortex structures and not enough on the brain stem/limbic system ensemble, the "value" or "hedonist" systems which root the brain in the body. In his theory of neural darwinism, connections are indeed "selected" depending on their biological value in the broadest sense. This is a far cry away from computational models of the brain (I think the image he preferred for the brain was that of a dense rain forest agitated by winds…good image...)
Damasio's work might be another example of this attempt to embody brain science.

I think this is very true, @Christian Godbout. I think its because we have the paradigms to study cognition, but have been slow on developing paradigms to study aspects of affective processing.

I also agree that Damasio has been a game-changer there... but we have a long way yet to go.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I'm also loosing pace with the posts, but wanted to comment ont his one:



The idea of distributed mental representations is old in cognitive science. I see you had a look at some of those PDP models from the 80's and 90's? In those, a piece of knowledge is not represented in any one "unit" in the model, it is represented in patterns of interconnections in the whole model. The retrieval of that knowledge is also not represented in a single unit, but by a sequence of events that engages many units and their interconnections. (of course, these are models of cognition, not of brain function, they're not supposed to be neurally plausible, but the distributed knowledge idea is as old as that).

Similarly, recent models of working memory propose that the current content of awareness are represented by resonating activation throughout a network of interconnected units representing relevant concepts and other elements. These elements may be localised within very different brain regions. In fact, both prefrontal cortex and some region of posterior cortex are minimally required.

Turning to the brain in earnest now, once you start thinking in network terms, it seems decreasing likely that any experience would be "localised" to any one region. We might have thought like this once, but it was a long time ago now, and it didn't get us very far. I don't see that one-to-one localisation is required at all to make something "part of the world of physical science".

Within the connectionist (or PDP) community there was a lot of discussions around localism vs distributed representations around that time as it was relatively easy to construct localist models but when learning techniques (hill climbing) were applied the distributed ones were the natural way to go.

In a large interconnected network when talking about local vs distributed representations the question becomes one of the strengths of the connections and here analysis of models (such as using a sensitivity analysis) with learning (at least looking at language) showed that the representations did distribute over much of the space. But there were attempts to modularize the models in a large part to reduce the complexity of the learning and make it computationally tractable - at that time it wasn't unusual for the fitting of data to take a week or more given even a reasonable computer.

What becomes interesting is to see the distributed representations as points in large dimensional vector spaces. Where there was a theory that similar representations would be clustered around similar points within this space and processes could be applied as a transformation that would lead to a different set of points and hence different thing being represented. The key question being is there a system of representations that allow for transformations to represent these processes that generalize over the relevant representational space. I seem to remember the work of the early 90's suggesting yes to this but I moved on to other topics and without the internet at the time didn't follow the research further.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
The idea of distributed mental representations is old in cognitive science. I see you had a look at some of those PDP models from the 80's and 90's? In those, a piece of knowledge is not represented in any one "unit" in the model, it is represented in patterns of interconnections in the whole model. The retrieval of that knowledge is also not represented in a single unit, but by a sequence of events that engages many units and their interconnections. (of course, these are models of cognition, not of brain function, they're not supposed to be neurally plausible, but the distributed knowledge idea is as old as that).

Similarly, recent models of working memory propose that the current content of awareness are represented by resonating activation throughout a network of interconnected units representing relevant concepts and other elements. These elements may be localised within very different brain regions. In fact, both prefrontal cortex and some region of posterior cortex are minimally required.

Turning to the brain in earnest now, once you start thinking in network terms, it seems decreasing likely that any experience would be "localised" to any one region. We might have thought like this once, but it was a long time ago now, and it didn't get us very far. I don't see that one-to-one localisation is required at all to make something "part of the world of physical science".

Dear Woolie,
It is not so much that I had a look at a few papers. I was copied in to an email yesterday that said:

Below, you will find a Call for Participation for a Frontiers in Psychology, Section Cognition, research topic on "Representation in the Brain", hosted by Asim Roy, Leonid Perlovsky, Juyang Weng, Jonathan C. W. Edwards, and Tarek Besold.

I actually edit books on this topic! The subtitle is likely to be something like 'the role of individual neurons in distributed processing'.

We are all agreed that knowledge is represented as a widely distributed pattern of shifts in connection weightings. Even Leibniz seems to have deduced that, having looked at cells through Leeuwenhoek's microscope and argued from first principles. Retrieval of knowledge will require signals to be sent through the network. But to make any use of an output from that retrieval process that specifies some image or concept or name or whatever it has to arrive somewhere. I know my six times table whether I am asleep, listening to Tristan or gardening. But if someone asks me what is four times six, the answer 24 has to arrive somewhere in the brain in order for me to 'think of 24' and for my speech apparatus to be fed the commands to report it.

In a standard connectionist model, as I understand it, the output will consist of a pattern of firings of some units amongst a bank of final layer integrator units, or possibly a temporal sequence from a single final unit, although this requires a routine that I do not think connectionist systems usually make use of. If integrator units (neurons) in the brain were serial in operation then the second model will do - and since it involves a single locus it fits with what I am suggesting. But neurons do not work like that and the slowness would not compete with predators using convergent-divergent systems and since the rest of the connectionist net is convergent-divergent anyway it makes no real sense even in the model. But in the first model the output pattern consists of a set of events that have no causal interrelation as they stand. To make use of them all as a pattern they all have to relate causally to at least one downstream event - they have to converge on some individual integrator unit. So we are back to what I am suggesting - that an entire output pattern, such as 24, has to be the input to at least one individual integrator unit.

And of course this requires just the same architecture as the connectionist rows beforehand. Having one unit receiving 24, or 12, or 18 does not provide a large enough repertoire of response so you want lots of units all receiving 24 through the divergent component of the network architecture - connectionist again. But we have to posit that, at least in this row, there are inputs to individual units that represent the entire concept or idea or image being experienced. Note that I am in no way suggesting that the experience of 'thinking 24 at that moment' occurs in only one place. That was Descartes's mistake, and also Leibniz's. Ironically, William James makes the same mistake having realised he did not need to. The experience will be massively multiple - as in the rows of a connectionist net. The solution to the paradox is that experiencing is distributed but an individual instance of experience is local. (This is basically the topic of the book Asim Roy and I are producing.)

The stuff about resonating circuits is, I think, complete guff. It arises from Wolf Singer and Walter Freeman's work and von der Malsburg's suggestion about binding by synchrony from way back. It has become fashionable, with Tononi, Edelman, Dehaene and whoever piling in. I know Walter and we argue about this, but it is incompatible with physics and in fact it is incompatible with the mechanism used by von der Malsburg to justify it. Synchrony can only have a causal effect locally. It is Imperial tailoring and no more. The whole wild goose chase dates back to the paper Horace Barlow wrote in Perception in 1972, which Horace now admits sent people off on the wrong tack completely.

So we are agreed that experience is unlikely to be localised to one region but physics does require each instance of experience to be local if it is to be a real physical event with specific causal powers. The reason why previous thinking did not get far is that so few people have considered the multiplicity issue. Hyperaspistes did in 1641, the philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe did sometime around 1970, Semir Zeki and Horace Barlow have glanced off it and now it is back on the agenda. The problem is the intuitive resistance to the idea that there is more than one 'I' in one's brain. But if one can get over that hurdle then it becomes possible to turn the sort of models that Mark Edwards likes into something both coherent and consistent with physical science.