The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Micro nutrient deficiency causes ME/CFS not germs

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by robinhood12345, May 30, 2018.

  1. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    Casimr Funk discovered the first b vitamin 1912. He realised disease was caused by these vitamin deficiencies, and that other theories like germ theory are wrong. Here is one of his papers, and his book

    http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/history/Funk_1912.pdf

    https://archive.org/details/cu31924073915161

    Choline is important, and deficiency is common.Google choline deficiency NCBI to find what it does in rats. Some studies on it's roles:

    http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1080/07315724.1992.10718251

    http://zycia.com.au/publications/choline-needed-for-normal-development.pdf

    http://zycia.com.au/publications/nutritional-importance-of-choline.pdf

    There are plent of textbooks on nutritional biochemistry, and the b vitamins/minerals on libgen.
    Chronometer is a good website to track micro nutrient intake.
    Nutritiondata can be used to view the b vitamin content of food.
    A lot of b vitamins besides 9, and 12 can actually be blood tested check with doctor or pathology websites in ones country.
    Yeast, rice bran cereal, mixed nuts, wheat germ, wheat bran are some of the highest food sources of them.
     
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  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    And where is the evidence for that?
     
  3. datadragon

    datadragon Guest

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    https://coppertoxic.com/adrenals
    https://coppertoxic.com/flowchart - click then zoom buttons on bottom right.

    Yes, initial nutrition deficiencies such as magnesium, zinc, b-vitamins, and potassium seem to be the underlying cause of cfs and can be brought on by ongoing stressors depleting them or lack in the diet. Stressors are not just emotional and mental but include a wide range of things like excess copper exposure (coppertoxic.com), mercury from fish or dental amalgams, alcohol, caffeine, blood sugar issues, inflammation and more. These just all put a demand on the body that can lead to adrenal burnout. Viral reactivations are just another part that some may face.

    https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?posts/980149/

    For an easier example, depression, anxiety/panic, ocd, and even sleep issues can be caused from lack of any of the nutrients mentioned, and some like zinc, magnesium, and b vitamins are depleted from stress. If you have mercury it also depletes magnesium and zinc, interferes with selenium, NA-K-ATP enzyme, nitric oxide etc, if you have copper excess over lower zinc it depletes all the ones with an X.

    https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?posts/980315/
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
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  4. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    ... however mercury or copper will only accumulate in a micro nutrient deficient body so those two things are not the cause but just markers of deficiency.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2018
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  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Science does not know the cause of ME/CFS, so you cannot go around making statements like that.

    You may have your own personal hypothesis that nutritional deficiencies play a role in ME/CFS, but that would just be your view. One should not present an opinion or hypothesis as a fact.
     
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    The title of this thread is: Micro nutrient deficiency causes ME/CFS not germs

    Any posts that do not relate specifically to this topic will be removed--this is not a general medical discussion.
     
  7. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    A plethora of literature going back to Casimr Funks time disagrees with you.

    You may have your own personal hypothesis that nutritional deficiencies don't play a role in ME/CFS, but that would just be your view. One should not present an opinion or hypothesis as a fact.
     
  8. datadragon

    datadragon Guest

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    Mercury or excess copper are stressors to the body, which cause the body to produce cortisol and adrenaline. There are many types of stressors that are handled by the body the same way as if you were being chased by a tiger with a release of cortisol and can create the deficiencies by repeated stress. On top of that, copper can then accumulate in that state as you mentioned.

    Just from the stress, here is just an example of magnesium in the body, the lack of which alone can cause quite a bit of the symptoms
    http://www.magnesiumeducation.com/how-magnesium-works-why-it-is-important
     
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    If this thread does not stay on topic it will be closed.
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Well then, can you quote some studies from this "plethora of literature" that provide evidence for micro nutrient deficiency causing ME/CFS?



    Can you point out where in this thread I presented an opinion or hypothesis as fact? I did not give any opinion on what might cause ME/CFS.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  11. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2018
  12. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    When I opened that study I just searched for the word deficiency, and the section on FAD came up. Then I read the full study....

    Sphingolipids and Glycosphingolipids Were Decreased.
    Phospholipids Were Decreased.
    Purines Were Decreased.
    Aromatic Amino Acid Metabolites from the Microbiome Were Decreased.
    Cholesterol and Bile Acid Synthesis Through the Lathosterol Pathway Were Decreased.

    And there were a few more....
     
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    I suggest that you read Naviaux work carefully if you are going to quote him. His premise was not that nutrient deficiency caused ME/CFS--it was much more complex. There are several threads discussing it here on PR.
     
  14. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    Deficiency of phospholipids is choline omega 3, and whatever else is needed to make them deficiency. Those other things will have b vitamins/minerals as co factors for the enzymes to make them.... So CFS is lack of variety in the diet leading to micro nutrient deficiency- lack of fruit, veges, cereal grains, nuts, seeds, seafood, and increased nutrient deficiency, and demand due to alcohol, prescription drugs, caffeine.
     
  15. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    How many people on this forum do you think are even able to tolerate alcohol? Not only are you making your own hypothesis and generalizing it as some kind of fact, you are also making other unwarranted claims to fit your hypothesis, i.e. that those who develop CFS have a less varied diet. Again, those are just assertions based on no evidence. I don't want to sound argumentative, but there is nowhere this thread can go with blanket accusations like the one that people with CFS eat less varied than others.

    Speaking of diet, I read about a man who has only eaten pizza for the last 25 years. Curiously he didn't go on to develop CFS.
     
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  16. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    There was a thread created about how people with CFS respond to alcohol, and it got a lot of replies so it looks like a lot of people with CFS still drink alcohol.

    I don't want to sound argumentative but how do you suppose someone becomes deficient in all the micro nutrients in that study if they have a super varied diet then?

    When did I ever claim pizza causes CFS? And can you link to the source of someone eating only pizza for 25 years?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2018
  17. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Sure, here's one source for the story. I didn't claim that you claimed eating pizza causes CFS, but one would think that only eating pizza basically for 25 years would result in pretty obvious micronutrient deficiency, which according to your model would lead to CFS. And more generally, America is full of these people who don't eat vegetables and rely on fast food etc. They tend to get obese, but there isn't a massive CFS outbreak coming from it.

    Deficiency btw doesn't necessarily relate to diet. The most obvious case is probably B12 deficiency, which is often caused by the lack of intrinsic factor to break down B12, i.e. a genetic deficiency.
     
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  18. robinhood12345

    robinhood12345 Senior Member

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    I am sceptical of those news articles because as we all know news articles are not a credible source. It would be nice to have a study on his alleged pizza only diet.

    B12 is checked on blood tests so deficiency of it is uncommon, and if found is addressed quickly. Things like thiamine (occasionally checked), biotin (never checked unless suspected of genetic disease), choline (never checked) deficiency are common. And all the other b vitamins are not checked so even if an entire population of a country had multiple b vitamin deficiencies they will never find out. Then they get cancer or heart disease or some other problem, and the doctor tells them "no one knows the cause of this disease". If I was designing blood tests for a country it would include every essential nutrient there is. Then everyone would find the cause of their disease, adjust diet accordingly, and get better.
     
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  19. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    Agreed and well said @Hip. No one knows the true cause of ME/CFS at this time.

    The majority on every poll, and informal survey, I have seen on PR cannot tolerate alcohol. I developed a complete intolerance to alcohol when I got sick due to the high histamine content and it being a vasodilator when I already had very low BP.

    Not true. B12 deficiency is not uncommon and I had it for a better part of the last year (even though my doctor was trying to address it). I finally got my B12 into normal range with Hydroxo B12 because I was unable to tolerate the Methyl version.

    We have no idea why one person develops cancer (and another one doesn't) any more than we do with ME/CFS. There are many theories but none are proven. One person can smoke several packs a day and never get cancer and another person can be a non-smoker, eat a clean, organic diet and still die of cancer. Science is not there yet to explain this.

    Is this for real? I eat a variety of foods, and take supplements but still struggle to maintain an appropriate blood level of B12, Folate, Vit D, Potassium, Iron, etc, we suspect b/c of malabsorption issues from MCAS. There are endless factors involved in maintaining appropriate nutrient levels.
     
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  20. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe

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    No office intended, but I don't think you understand how science works. Correlation does not equal causation, and it's a very basic mistake to make. Just because people end up deficient in nutrients does not necessarily follow that they have a poor diet.

    Deficiencies can be due to a number of factors, including but not limited to:
    -genetic factors hampering synthesis of nutrients
    -malabsorption in the gut, due to digestive problems and/or disease
    -metabolic blocks which impair the body's ability to access or use certain nutrients
    -a slew of other things I've not thought of.

    There's nothing to back up your assertion that deficiencies are the primary cause of ME.

    The Naviaux paper is being massively misrepresented. It's like you only skim-read it for the details you want to cherry pick.

    Naviaux is actually proposing a widespread metabolic problem as one possible driver of the disease. The problem isn't diet but how a persistent hypometabolic state is cconspiring with other factors to keep us ill.

    I quote (and from the beginning of the paper, no less!):

    Ergo, it's the hypometabolic response, not diet, that's causing the problems. The hypometabolic state also doesn't seem to be caused by deficiencies, but rather 'environmental stress'. Deficiencies are likely a consequence of this dauer state.
     
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