Methylfolate Side Effects and copper defficiency

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you, Willow. Is 15mg Zn : 2mg Cu ok?

I thought it would be fine to supplement only Cu for just a week since I have been supplementing Zn for about a month (stopped last week).

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

If I add a low dose B complex with potassium will it aggravate or alleviate my situation?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Well, you can easily take a second dose. If 500mg B3 doesn't make you feel better, maybe it's not what you need. I take about 500mg per day.

You were right and got me thinking.

I started with low potassium problems. Then I started taking KCl with added iodide. I thought I got worse from the iodide and started taking packaged "additive-free" coconut water. Then I got even worse.

Though after ordering KCl form iHerb I found this review explaining my reaction to the KCl:

http://www.iherb.com/product-reviews/Now-Foods-Potassium-Chloride-Powder-8-oz-227-g/777/?p=1&fr=1

"Unsuitable for thyroid/adrenal/endocrine/CFS issues
I tried using this as a salt substitute, though didn't do that for long because p-o-t-a-s-s-i-u-m and/or chloride,
either individually or as a combo, are a bad fit for low levels of iodine or manganese or silica or B12 or sodium and
may therefore contribute to thyroid/adrenal/endocrine/collagen/CFS issues."

Luckily I have also ordered potassium gluconate. I hope to not get worse with it.

I am also sure now that the coconut water I was taking contains hidden sulfites, which depleted me of magnesium and B1 and aggravated the breath shortness, anxiety and other symptoms. I wonder if all the ginger tea I drank also had a detrimental effect.

I will order from a local compunding pharmacy the following formulation and would be thankful if anyone could comment on it.

To take before bed: chelated Cu 1.2mg (I would be thankful if WillowJ could comment on that considering that I will be taking 15mg of Zn during the day)

Total daily dose to take in the morning and in the afternoon:
Mg citrate 300 mg
Zn glycinate 15 mg
B1 Thiamine HCl 20 mg
B2 Riboflavin 15 mg
B3 Nicotinamide 30 mg
B5 Calcium pantothenate 30 mg
B6 Pirydoxine HCl 20 mg
Potassium (AA complex) 100 mg
L-glycine 300 mg
L-glutamine 3g
Phosphatidylcholine 150 mg

After 15 days the following will be added:
NAC 500 mg
L-taurine 150 mg
Biotin 50 mcg

I hope my ordeal will help other people with similar problems.

izzy

Edit to add that having started the homeopathic remedy "Causticum" on March 24 probably contributed to my present sodium intolerance.

 

[WillowJ]

Thank you, Willow. Is 15mg Zn : 2mg Cu ok?

I thought it would be fine to supplement only Cu for just a week since I have been supplementing Zn for about a month (stopped last week).

izzy

hi izzy

I am not entirely sure. (also sorry I didn't see your post sooner: you can tag me by putting a @ in front of my name, or I'll also get a notice if you quote part of my post.)

The stuff my doc sold me had 25 mg zinc and 2.5 mg copper... I eventually figured out he likes higher doses than most others, so I would not go by the absolute values but maybe the ratio would be helpful. (I quit taking this and other supplements a while back, and am gradually replacing with my own things)

Someone else knowledgeable also told me to use Cu with Zn.

ah, ok, here we go:

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/copper

The best way to get enough copper is through your diet. For your body to use copper, you need to have a balance of zinc and manganese....
...
Adult

• For adults 19 years and older: 900 mcg daily
• For pregnant women: 1,000 mcg daily
• For breastfeeding women: 1,300 mcg daily

If you take a copper supplement, you should also take a zinc supplement (8 - 15 mg of zinc for every 1 mg of copper), as an imbalance of these two minerals can cause other health problems.

Evidently if too much is taken, it works backwards and then hinders the absorption of other minerals, namely Zn and Fe.
http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/zinc.php
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/zinc

Your body doesn't need a large amount of zinc. The recommended daily allowance for adults is 8 - 11 mg. It’s common to have slightly low levels of zinc, but taking a multivitamin, plus eating a healthy diet, should give you all the zinc you need.

It's rare for people in industrialized countries to be seriously deficient in zinc. Low zinc levels are sometimes seen in the elderly, alcoholics, people with anorexia, and people on very restricted diets. People who have malabsorption syndromes, such as Crohn's disease or celiac disease, may also be deficient in zinc.

Symptoms of zinc deficiency include loss of appetite; poor growth; weight loss; lack of taste or smell; poor wound healing; skin problems such as acne, atopic dermatitis and psoriasis; hair loss; lack of menstrual period; night blindness; white spots on the fingernails; and depression.

Zinc reduces the amount of copper your body absorbs, and high doses of zinc can cause a copper deficiency. For that reason, many doctors recommend that you take 2 mg of copper along with a zinc supplement.

There are precautions, side effects, interactions, and dietary sources at the links.

I assume we fit into the 'malabsorption problems' category Though some of us would also fit 'very restricted diets'. But I also think more people may need vitamins than the official story says.

ETA: one more

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/982.html

Note that many zinc products also contain another metal called cadmium. This is because zinc and cadmium are chemically similar and often occur together in nature.

Exposure to high levels of cadmium over a long time can lead to kidney failure. The concentration of cadmium in zinc-containing supplements can vary as much as 37-fold.

Look for zinc-gluconate products. Zinc gluconate consistently contains the lowest cadmium levels.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you, @WillowJ that was very informative.

I keep finding new info related to my symptoms:

I used KCl from March 22-25 then on March 26 I took 150mg silymarin. Since a lot of people around here take potassium and silymarin, I think this should be considerated:

http://www.ehealthme.com/drug-interactions/potassium-chloride-and-silymarin

Most common interactions experienced by people in the use of Potassium Chloride, Silymarin:
(click on each outcome to view in-depth analysis, incl. how people recovered)
InteractionNumber of reports
Dry Eye (lack of adequate tears)6
Myocardial Infarction (destruction of heart tissue resulting from obstruction of the blood supply to the heart muscle)6
Cholelithiasis (the presence or formation of gallstones in the gallbladder or bile ducts)6
Fatigue (feeling of tiredness)5
Blood Glucose Increased4
Chest Pain4
Anaemia (lack of blood)4
Skin Discolouration (change of skin colour)4
Chills (felling of cold)4
Fall4

izzy

 

[Violeta]

This study shows that supplementing folic acid (I do realize that's not the acceptable form) decreases excretion of zinc, but not copper. Therefore, I would jump to the conclusion that it would cause a relative deficiency of copper.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6711464

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you Violeta, it makes sense.

izzy

 

[ahmo]

@Gondwanaland Liver is a good source of copper. I've just added it back into my diet, now that my Cu levels are down.

 

[WNM]

Hi Izzy,

I would just like to say be careful not to attribute every symptom you get to a nutrient imbalance. The body is extremely complex and symptoms can be generated via many interacting systems. If you stick with well balanced formulas and don't take nutrients in isolation or excess you won't have to worry so much about imbalances. Eliminating this worry may be especially helpful if you have anxiety/paranoia/obsessive tendencies. Also don't feel you have to take large doses of things for them to be worthwhile. Most supplements are actually extremely potent compared to what is available in nature.

I think it is best to establish good digestion and a solid diet. This could then be supplemented with things that help you, at doses that don't produce negative symptoms. Build up slowly.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi WNM, thanks for your input. It has always been my concern not to overdo things since I know I can react strongly to minimal dosages.

Ahmo, I have been considering that lately. It is very difficult for me to start new habits, especially now that my honeymoon with the mB12 is already over.

 

[South]

@Violeta Actually, that study's net affect on copper seems to be neutral. See post # 16 here:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...gaba-to-reverse-its-effect.29083/#post-447614

 

[Violeta]

@South, yes, there was no effect on copper, the effect would be on the ratio of copper to zinc.

However, thanks for the complete text of that study. I have to reread it to see if I can figure out net zinc in all three parts of the study, but I see what you mean. At one point it even says that folate affects zinc nurtriture negatively. That's strange.

So now I think I should keep looking for a reason for the effect of folate on immune system and histamine production. Any ideas?
Or is the affect on the immune system caused by chelating and/or making zinc biounavailable?

 

[whodathunkit]

Izzy, FWIW, I second WNM's advice. I have been trying to read various posts of yours in various threads and frankly, I'm very confused. You seem to be having a lot of sides and many of them could be attributable to various causes, thus making addressing them difficult. It seems as if you may be somewhat confused and maybe overwhelmed, too. I have been that way with supplements before. When that has happened to me in the past (several times over the years, in fact), I backed off to the very barest essentials (good multi, probiotics, etc.), took a long hard look at my diet, took another look at my gut health, and first and foremost tried to get stable in those two areas. Sometimes chelating is of tremendous help, as well. Then, when I was no longer overwhelmed with weird sides, I started adding back in the supplements I wanted very sloooooowly. Works every time. Unless I didn't need the supplement, in which case backing off and then going slow helped me figure that out, too.

Also, since you are having so many sides and difficulty teasing them out, it might be worthwhile for you to have the 23&me genetic test. It might help you develop a roadmap to recovering your health.

Incidentally, you probably want to stay away from potassium iodide since you still have amalgam fillings. Potassium iodide is essentially iodine and can be a potent mover of mercury. Mercury toxicity can be the cause of many toxic sides including heart palpitations, etc. I don't have any fillings but still had trouble with potassium iodide until I cleaned up my diet, cleaned up my gut, and chelated a few times. Now it's one of my favorite supplements and it's done me a lot of good. Just an illustration of how backing off and taking care of core issues can help further you down the path to wellness.

Good luck!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you @whodathunkit. I will figure a way to do the 23&me in the close future (it is not available to my country).

I have stopped all supps. Looking back, to me it seems that I was caught in a huge snowball in the sense that everything I did to fix one symptom had a detrimental side effect to my health. I think the worst were pacakged coconut water and then silymarin on top of it. Of course the KCl and causticum didn't help.

I think @ahmo is correct to say I am having thiol intolerance.
Tonight I am going to try 2.5g glutamine + 1.5g glycine. I have also ordered Molybdenum, but will wait to see the effects of Glu+Gly. My order will be delivered in the late afternoon.

I hope someone here can give me an input regarding this supplementation.

izzy