• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Methylcobalamin Inhalation Therapy

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
I'm really glad it seems to be helping you aturtles. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to look up the ingredients in the list you gave me to determine if they are safe to inhale. I'm really swamped with work for the foreseeable future. I would encourage you to look into them yourself and be careful about assuming that if you can use it as a nasal spray then you can vape it. For instance one of my nasal sprays contains potassium sorbate which is a lung irritant if vaped.

If I get a chance this weekend I will look into them more.

Yes. Good comments. Much appreciated.

I called the compounding pharmacy just now and found that their for-nebulizer version of methylcobalamin -- their inhalable compound -- also contains sodium chloride, just like the nasal spray [1]. But, said the pharmacist, the extra ingredients are not the important point -- what matters is that the inhalable compound is STERILE, essential for anything you're going to inhale.

Okay, but I wonder about that. Seems to me we inhale lots of things that aren't sterile, on a regular basis. The nicotine mixture that e-cigs use -- betting that's not sterile. I know air isn't. But there's lots I don't know.

@bluewhistled, Is the MeCbl you're using sterile?

I'm grateful for your help, but without expectation -- I consider it a gift. Thank you in advance for anything you find out, when or if your time allows.

I'll keep researching, too, and asking my various medical resources what they think the properties of an inhaled substance need to be, and if there's anything in this particular ingredients list that I ought not to be putting in my lungs in those amounts. I may take a break from vaping until I get more solid info.

Anyone have thoughts on all this?

[1] Nasal spray compounded ingredients: Methylcobalamin *PFL* (.150gm); Sodium Chloride (15ml); Benzalkonium Chloride NF 50% (.003 ml); water (distilled) (.027ml); water (sterile) (.002ml); sodium hydroxide NF (.001gm).
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Is the consensus that nebulizer is as good as ecig? So far my local choices are $84 for VapoRite "Jade" Pen Vaporizer, capacity of 1.8mls or several nebulizers, ranging from $21 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Portable...79?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3a893ff19b) $35 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-4MHz-U...?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item540ed12330); or the same model for $13 + $12 delivery from Hong Kong;

I've always been too reluctant to order products from Hong Kong, Singapore. But I guess it's no more risky than anything else.

Anyone have any other experience w/ nebulizers? Thx, so much looking forward to this. :)
 

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
Is the consensus that nebulizer is as good as ecig?
Anyone have any other experience w/ nebulizers? Thx, so much looking forward to this. :)

@ahmo, I have used both, though not for MeCbl solutions, so I can only comment on convenience. The nebulizer I used plugged into the wall and was loud. The vape/e-cig is a carry-with lithium battery that must be recharged daily. When I get clarity on the safety of the MeCbl compound I'm using -- or I get a replacement (where are you getting your MeCbl, btw?) -- I'm going for the vape, not a neb, because I like the portability. OTOH, I will probably have to refill cartridges every other day or so; not sure about how your neb will work (recall that you'll need to light protect the liquid-carrying area). On the other-other-hand, I think nebs may use more liquid, which might be a pain. Too many hands. :) The vape I have is about $35, with cartridges a few bucks each, but it's not the cheapest of the lot. The cheap ones wear out faster, be warned. Check ratings.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Starting out with this one, as it fit into the order I was placing : http://www.iherb.com/California-Xtracts-B-12-Liquid-Sublingual-5-000-mcg-1-fl-oz-30-ml/47165

Thanks for your impressions. I'll go back and study the nebulizers more closely tomorrow. I see that it includes both mask and mouthpiece. I like the idea of cool delivery :)cool:), but not averse to the heat of vaping....I see now that ll the nebulizers I'm looking at are the same model, just one shows box, others the unit only.
 
Last edited:

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
All right, my vaping report and current thoughts on inhalation therapy:

I ended my vape test at 24 hours; I realized that I was not only feeling the MeCbl (yeah, baby!) but I was accumulating an odd brain-fog. Both my ND and @bluewhistled pointed out that there were additives in the solution I was using I might not want in my lungs. Suspect that's the case. Possibly cause of brainfog, too.

So I need a quality MeCbl without additives to resume my testing.

I wants it very, very badly. :)


Ingredients listed as: Methylcobalamin & Vegetable glycerin, deionized water, raspberry and berry natural flavors, citric acid. I'm assuming you're not concerned about inhaling "raspberry and berry natural flavors, citric acid"? Hey, it's probably better than Benzalkonium Chloride and sodium hydroxide NF, which is what's in my nasal spray and was in my lungs for 24 hours.

But I am concerned that they say this product is good until "Jun 2016", which seems painfully unlikely, and makes me not trust them. Even with all the preservatives in the nasal spray Key Compounding Pharmacy made for me, the potency drops below 92% at 60 days after manufacture, and presumably goes down from there. (No, I don't know how fast. Yes, I want all their testing reports.)

I spoke with my Naturopathic Doctor today about inhalation therapy, and she's almost as jazzed by the idea as I am, having been a long-time fan of nebulizers and pulmonary application of various supplements. She says we need to find MeCbl without additives, that has been independantly tested for potency, and has been handled correctly with regard to light-sensitivity. It would be good if it were sterile, too.

As you know, MeCbl is fragile stuff. It ages fast, it deteriorates in light, and needs to be kept refrigerated. I have spent hours on the phone talking to compounding pharmacists about testing, light protection, and shipping processes. (Annoyingly, I knew things about MeCbl that they didn't know.)

Also there is the issue of sterility of the base substance. While the air we breathe is not sterile, MeCbl that's been contaminated and stored for a while has time to grow things that we definitely don't want in our lungs. The best of substances might not be sterile by the time it combines with the air in the room and gets through our vape/neb devices into our lungs, but it won't have have had a month or two (Jun 2016?) to grow something our lungs will be far more vulnerable to than our mouths or noses or stomachs.

I'm coming to understand that this is one of the trade-offs of inhalation -- the source product must have a much higher standard of purity.

This is one of the advantages of sublingual pills-- they are far more stable. They can handle light. They age well. They are sterile. BUT -- they don't absorb as well, and they also have filler to stablize them, the sorts of things you might not want in your body (and sure don't want in your lungs).

What I'm saying is this: it would be easy to end up with MeCbl to inhale that has little or no potency because of poor manufacturing or aging, making the vape/neb testing meaningless or worse. It doesn't matter how good a deal the MeCbl is if it doesn't work.

I've contacted bio-alternatives (http://www.bio-alternatives.net/b12.htm) about their product, both by email and phone, but they never answered my last query, so I'm not hopeful. I'm guessing that places like bio-alternatives couldn't afford to sell MeCbl at the price they do if they had 3rd party testing, or handled the substance with the care it needs, but I'd love to be wrong. I've also contacted california xtracts (maker of the iherb product above -- http://californiaxtracts.com/contact-us) to ask them about their potency testing and handling processes.

@bluewhistled, @Hip, @kswag, @traray, @ahmo: does anyone have a source for MeCble that is verified potent, has no additives, that is suitable for inhaling? I don't need it to be dirt-cheap; I need it to be reliable, pure, and potent.

Because if we don't start with quality ingredients, the delivery method is irrelevant.

My thanks to all.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@aturtles,

I followed bluewhistled's lead and use the stuff from bio-alternatives. My lungs still work, so I would say it's sterile enough. Your results may vary.

@ everyone

I watched a video on rebuilding coils and I saw something disturbing. These coils glowed white with heat when power was supplied. If this is what goes on in our vaporizers it seems we would be destroying a lot of MB12. I May have to take apart one of the heads to see. Thoughts? Someone please tell me I'm wrong.
 

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
@Hip, I've read the thread, start to finish, a good number of times. I commented on my concern about inhaling the liquid forms of MeCbl mentioned earlier in the thread in my last post. Unless someone has decided to buy crystals from a reputable source -- and knows how to mix them into liquid form -- in which case, count me in, please; I want some -- all I have seen discussed here for MeCbl liquid without preservatives are the two I mentioned above. Please point out my oversight.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@aturtles
I'm not concerned about the heat in the vaporizer, but instead that the coils are possibly white hot - that is they are producing light.
 

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
@aturtles
I'm not concerned about the heat in the vaporizer, but instead that the coils are possibly white hot - that is they are producing light.

Ahha. Hmm. Interesting point. Well, I believe it takes a few minutes to start degradation due to light. so maybe that flash isn't a problem?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
@aturtles
I'm not concerned about the heat in the vaporizer, but instead that the coils are possibly white hot - that is they are producing light.

I would not have thought the coils will be white hot when used in situ, when the coils are heating the fluid.
 

aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
See the source discussed in this post.

@Hip, my concerns here are similar and echo @bluewhistled's concerns:
I would like to know how it was tested for purity and hopefully a signed certificate of analysis.

Do you have knowledge of the purity of this product? Have you used it?

Also I don't know how to convert from crystal to liquid form. There might be more to it than mixing it with a base. Can you tell me?
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
@Hip
I think you're right. The temperature of metals glowing red is around is around 400 C. White is even hotter. I presume the head operates at less than 100 C with the e-liquid around. Theoretical catastraphe averted. Thanks.

@aturtles
I think the plan is this: Once we have B12 powder, just add as much as possible to the VG/distilled water mixture. I don't think anybody knows how much MB12 VG/water can hold before it precipitates out, but obviously we want as much as possible.
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Do you have knowledge of the purity of this product? Have you used it?

I know nothing about it, and have not used it. I just found this product through Googling. Perhaps you might want to email the company and ask if a certificate of analysis is available. Though I rarely see such certificates provided for any powdered supplements I buy (with the exception of purebulk.com, who always attach the certificate with their powered bulk items).

Also I don't know how to convert from crystal to liquid form.

Take some B12, put it in water. I don't think there are any complexities.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Well done @aturtles for moving this research forward. I was aware that my choice had citric, and the flavors. It didn't have the ingredients bluewhistled had definitely found noxious, so I started here. Still have to make a closer examination of the nebulizer, how well it can be shielded from light, etc.:thumbsup:
 
Messages
21
Yes. Good comments. Much appreciated.
But, said the pharmacist, the extra ingredients are not the important point -- what matters is that the inhalable compound is STERILE, essential for anything you're going to inhale.

@aturtles, I would stop listening to this pharmacist. Of course you want it to be as sterile as possible, but you're inhaling it, not injecting it. You inhale bacteria and microbes constantly. As to the extra ingredients not being the important part, I'm completely flabbergasted that a real pharmacist with a real college education would claim this. Perhaps if we had the solution mixed with a 10% strychnine/arsenic/hydrofluoric acid solution, but we sterilized it afterwards we would be fine? Maybe I'll just go add some b12 to the rag I huff my gold spray paint off of as long as I've washed the rag first. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/it-aint-just-paint /end sarcasm

As far as mixing the solution is concerned you just keep adding/mixing until what @skwag said, it quits dissolving or precipitates back out as you add more. Carefully measure the volume of VG and the volume of MeCbl and you'll know the maximum density that can be achieved with these two molecules.

I contacted that one company I mentioned a few posts back that was a really cheap source, $55 for 5 grams. The only problem is he has been "looking" for the COA for over a week now and has quit replying to my emails. Unfortunately it looks like it will be hard to find a reputable company in the states who isn't just ordering and reselling from China. I'll try and find some alternative sources soon that at least provide a shred of evidence.

@aturtles. I'm sorry for your brain fog, I hope it clears up immediately.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Another Update:

This one is a little dissappointing. So, I continued vaping B12 and not using any sublingual B12 until 5 days ago. I estimate I was vaping about 1mg per day. During that time I slowly began turning into Mr. Hyde. I became quick to lose my patience and was easily frustrated. This wasn't obvious to me at the time ( it never is ), but now it's clear.

I went back to the Enzy 5 days ago. I didn't feel anything when I took it, but in three days time I began feeling a little sting on the corners of my lips. On day four I was sure the angular angular cheilitis was there and I was in some type of folate deficiency. I'm currently increasing my folate dosage. My mood has also improved in the last few days. These events are up for interpretation, but this is the way I see it. For the nearly two weeks I was vaping I was not getting enough B12 and my methylation slowed way down. Once I reintroduced the Enzy, all the gears started turning again and I'm now experiencing "normal" startup symptoms. I guess you could call it a b12 induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

Here are some more thoughts.

I still think vaping B12 might work. Perhaps I was just not getting enough or the liquid B12 I used was light degraded or something along those lines. I'm still a little confused, since I'm pretty sure I "felt" the B12 the first few vaping sessions I had.

The technical side of vaping has been a bit of a pain in the ass for me. The wicks seemed to clog often and getting dry hits is horrible. I was also a little shocked to see how red the remaining mixture was in a nearly empty tank. It may be the the B12 is not wicked and vaporized as well as we would like in the VG solution. From my crash course in vaping, I know that Propylene Glycol (PG) is a better carrier of flavor. It may also carry the B12 better. Bluewhistled's use of flavoring, which might contain some PG, may account for some of our differences.

The take home for me is that I need more B12 and I'm sick of sublinguals. I'll still be looking to improve the B12 vaping. Maybe PG? Definitely need to find some B12 powder. And perhaps the nebulizer. I think the idea of B12 inhalation is good and worthy of expending more effort on, but this particular incarnation of it just didn't work for me.