May 12, 2017 Is International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day
International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day is May 12th, 2017. Jody Smith shares some information about upcoming events and ways you can be heard ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Methylcobalamin Inhalation Therapy

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by bluewhistled, Oct 8, 2014.

  1. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    Yes, the oil is not cheap. Especially at 3 doses per day. But it HAS been life-changing for me. I'm starting to see a few signs that might indicate its effectiveness is wearing off, and frankly that terrifies me. My symptoms are nothing compared to what many of you face -- but they were enough to make my life utterly miserable. I'm hoping I don't have to go there again, because I don't know what else besides B12 might help.
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,438
    Likes:
    6,792
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @garyfritz Yes, I can imagine it'd be terrifying if it seems to be losing effectiveness.:nervous:
    Hoping with you for the best, that things stay good.:hug:
     
  3. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    Thanks @ahmo, me too!! And I may have just stumbled onto something. Another member pointed me in the direction of Andrew Cutler chelation. One of their rules is that you don't take any chelators until you get rid of amalgams &etc. I checked and discovered the multi I'd started taking about 6 weeks ago (Life Extension 2-a-day) contains ALA, their main chelator. So Monday I stopped taking it, and for the last two nights I've slept better than I have recently. The daytime crazies also seem somewhat reduced. So maybe that explains why I've been having trouble recently. But it would also suggest I'm probably mercury-toxic so I should jump into the whole chelation journey. Which I'm not looking forward to...
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,438
    Likes:
    6,792
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @garyfritz Excellent! I know you're not looking forward to it, but you'll feel so much better when your body is unburdened. I was on detox protocol for 1 year very gently, a 2nd year more intensively. It's made a big difference. I could feel at certain points the metals leaving my body. From one day to the next, I lost a glitch in my shoulder. It reappeared again a few months ago, I;m back doing detox, I think it might have gone again. Good luck, johnmac is a great promoter of cutler's work. I didn't use ALA because of the sulfur and the whole thing w/ waking up for dosing. But it works for so many people.
     
  5. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    Yeah, I dug up a hair-metal test from last year and posted it on Cutler's FB page. The response was "Yes you almost certainly have mercury, and holy %#!! look at your lead levels!!" :confused: So I may be heading into that adventure soon, oh joy...
     
  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,438
    Likes:
    6,792
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
  7. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    Update: after 2 weeks off the ALA supplement, I'm still not having the troubles I was having before. Apparently the 2x/day ALA was stirring up mercury and causing problems. Which makes me wonder: 1) how many of my "B12 symptoms" were actually caused by mercury all along, and 2) what kind of hell will I go through when I pound the ALA every few hours???

    And if my problems are mercury symptoms, why is B12 so effective at keeping them under control? That doesn't seem to be a common observation in the mercury-chelation group, even though quite a few of them take large doses of B12.
     
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,438
    Likes:
    6,792
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    @garyfritz very interesting questions. Good luck with the regimen.
     
  9. suraj

    suraj

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    5
    Yasko-Methylation-Pathway-1024x650.jpg
    @garyfritz
    Im exactly at same point as you. this is my guess after reading Dr Yaskos work, if you refer her methylation pathway chart you will see Mercury blocks MTR/MTRR performance, and just drinks up your B12, we are just providing temp ease by adding Folate and B12. but in long run you need to detox mercury.

    having polymorphisum at MTR/MTRR only makes the situation even worse.

    My new hypothesis is Mercury toxicity is the root causes of B12 Deficiency. and thus both symptoms look alike.

    I still remember reading your posts about filling the tank theory, when you were trying trans-dermal oil, guess the tank filling will never happen till you get rid of the source of mercury and chelate out organ reserves of mercury.

    i will tell you- when you add ALA it stirs up mercury , your old symptoms starts flaring up and you will feel like paradoxical folate deficiency as @Freddd describes it as. and its scary, you think B12 is not working anymore for you.:eek:

    hope this was helpful and makes sense.

    look forward to @Freddd coments on this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  10. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    Lead too, I see, and I have very high lead. AND I'm +/+ MTRR A66G. :confused:

    I talked to Greg (the B12oils guy) and he pooh-poohed the mercury theory. He said "Millions of people have amalgams, and almost no one gets these symptoms, so it can't be the amalgams." Of course, he also says CFS/ME is purely a nutritional deficit, and he also says most people have horrifically bad nutrition, and that's what causes it. So I said "Millions of people have horrible nutrition and almost no one gets CFS/ME, so it can't be nutrition" but he didn't buy it for some reason...

    And as you say, Greg's theory of "filling my tank" has not worked for me. Then again he's never been able to explain why I use 3x more B12 than most of his customers, who are already using vastly more B12 than is supposed to be necessary. It may be that the mercury toxicity that he doesn't believe in, is causing the voracious need for B12 that he can't explain?

    I don't like the mercury theory -- the route of removing amalgams and chelating mercury sounds long, expensive, and very unpleasant -- but I have too many symptoms that would match up with mercury toxicity. And mercury IS extremely toxic, so it just makes sense to get the amalgams out.

    Meanwhile the massive doses of B12 seem to keep the worst symptoms under control, but it does not seem to be fixing the underlying problem. Darn, when I found B12 I thought I'd found the root cause. Guess I need to keep digging...
     
    ahmo likes this.
  11. suraj

    suraj

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    5

    @garyfritz good thought though. the Mercury chelation by Andy Cutler is pretty cheap/inexpensive compared to the B12 oils and all other supplements together.

    this is the link for quick learning of Andy cutlers protocol and how to manage your Adrenals while on the protocol http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/

    but you are fixing the problem beneath the hood. and i think you may not need to stick too hard to the protocol as you are supporting with B12. that eases out lot of work.

    you should check out for no of people on the internet who vouch and support for Andy cutler compared to B12 protocols. and lot of success.

    Guess if the B12 oil guys accept the theory of mercury, they would run out of business. :cautious:
     
  12. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    Yeah, there are a lot of Cutler success stories. The Cutler FB group is almost borderline cultish in the way they follow the Word of Andy. But I get the very strong impression that they're that way because Cutler's protocol WORKS, and it works much better than other options out there. There are many horror stories about people who tried other protocols and took years to recover from the damage.

    Like you say, I'm hoping the massive amounts of B12 I pump will ease the chelation process.
     
  13. suraj

    suraj

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    5
    @garyfritz im in the same boat as you. got my last Amalgam removed on Monday. researched on mercury & Dr Andy Cutler protocol for last 20 days. and im all set. Im continuing Fredds protocol which has ALA at the end of it. just removed the source of mercury to accelerate the process.

    definitely B12 and folate will give you quicker recovery and progress along with Cutler.

    this is the same holistic approach Dr Amy Yasko uses. just check the ingredients of her products - its again support your methylation ,and then chelation ( EDTA instead of DMSA).
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  14. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes:
    316
    I see Yasko starts EDTA at 1x/day. The Cutler folks say that is Bad, at least for ALA /etc. ALA mobilizes the mercury, but if you take it only once per day or so, it just redistributes the mercury and causes a whole new set of problems. The Cutler protocol says you dose every 3-4 hours, which is roughly the half-life of the ALA in your system, so you keep the mercury "in solution." Then (I assume, I'm still learning) your body can grab ahold of it and eliminate it.

    Did you develop your B12/folate idea from experiences on the Cutler forum, or is that an untested theory? It makes sense, and I like that it might mean my chelation process will be easier, but I haven't seen anyone on the Cutler FB group suggest that.
     
  15. suraj

    suraj

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    5

    @garyfritz you are rht on EDTA 1x per day by Dr Amy. but her target is Infants. who have no amalgam burden. and i have not found reliable source to tell the half life of EDTA for oral administration in human Serum however (The half-life of IV administration was found to be approximately 1.5 hours whereas the half-life of rectal administration was over 8 hours) . also the absorbtion of oral EDTA is about 10-15% so that makes the dose tooo small. and may not harm much. and EDTA does not cross the BBB any ways. But she doesnot disclose the exact value in her products and says "proprietary blend of "

    i guess in later stage the protocol introduces ALA which crosses BBB & also does heavy lifting work from intracellular.

    Cutlers forum do not talk much of B12/ folate.
    1. its my own experience.
    2. if you see under the hood of Dr Amys & Dr Ben lynch products and protocols.

    Dr amy says, open up alternate Methylation pathways (like BHMT etc) , support your adrenals, Mitrochondria, makes you feel better and then detox heavy metals, which makes absolute sense now.

    she says final job is to open main highway i.e MTR/MTRR but till then support it with alternate routes like BHMT, and Folate / B12 etc , as the route is down with heavy metals and is under maintenance.

    DMSA is a FDA approved prescribed drug in USA, so probably she uses EDTA that can be sold over the counter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,961
    Likes:
    1,503
    Salt Lake City
    forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylation.228/page-4#post-6481

    this was posted some years ago when I made a model based on combining research information. I'll write a specific rep[ly to some of the things I've seen posted in here

    Methylmercury-methylcobalamin 1mg/day model


    Hi Rick,

    Based on this available information I built an Excel model including the half-life, body load at earliest toxic effects of methyl mercury and 3 potential rates of utilization of methylb12 in methylating mercury in the body. It probably needs refinement and may have bugs. If you would like a copy of the Excel spreadsheet send me your email via private message. I assumed limited body loads of 30mg and 50mg and cut off conversion after that where applicable and demonstrated falling body load and serum level as would be expected with a 76 day serum half-life. I present this as a possiblity, a hypothesis to answer the question you asked. How does it sound to you? Did I forget anything important? Am I misinterpreting something. Does this fly?


    This question about mercury came up very early in my mb12 usage, a pain doc/professor I know who edits a journal as well. He asked about mercury. Maybe now 5 yeqars later I might be on the path to giviong him an answer.


    Methylmercury - Methylcobalamin 1mg/day Model
    Version 1.0 - 08/24/09

    Just a few terms and numbers that figure into this.
    "Methylmercury" is a shorthand for "monomethylmercury", and is more correctly "monomethylmercuric cation"

    Methylcobalamin has 1344.4 grams/mol. Mercury has 200.59 grams/mol and methylmercury has 215.6247 grams/mol.

    It takes 6.70228mg of methylb12 to methylate 1mg of mercury.

    It takes .149204mg of mercury to utilize the methyl groups from 1mg of methylb12

    According to the World Health Organization (WHO, 1976), the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans occur when blood concentrations are between 200 and 500 ng/mL. These blood concentrations correspond to body burdens of 30 to 50 mg Hg/70 kg and are equivalent to daily intakes of 3 to 7 g/kg.

    Less than 1% of the body burden of methyl mercury is excreted daily, resulting in a biological half-life of approximately 70 days (Berlin, 1983). Over a 4-day period, a human volunteer excreted only about 6% of the ingested dose of radiolabeled, protein-bound methyl mercury, the biological half-life ultimately being 76 days (Miettinen, 1973).
    http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profiles/methyl_mercury_f_V1.shtml
    A 76 day half-life amounts to 0.0099 loss per day, just a hair under 1%.

    So the question that arises is the old woodchuck question, how much wood .? What is the efficiency of conversion of mercury to monomethylmercury.

    At 100% efficiency, all methylb12 donating methyl group to Hg it would require 201mg to 335mg of methylcobalamin to immediately convert 30-50mg of Hg to methylmercury causing the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans.


    At 10% efficiency, 10% of all methylb12 donating methyl group to Hg it would require 2011mg to 3351mg of methylcobalamin to immediately convert 30-50mg of Hg to methylmercury causing the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans.


    At 1% efficiency, 1% of all methylb12 donating methyl group to Hg it would require 20,107mg to 33,511mg of methylcobalamin to immediately convert 30-50mg of Hg to methylmercury causing the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans.


    So then, what is the serum level of methylmercury contributed to by 1mg of methylb12 injected daily or equivalent in sublingual?



    One Day

    At 100% efficiency - 0.147725493mg 0.984ng/ml
    At 10% efficiency - 0.014772593mg 0.0984ng/ml
    At 1% efficiency - 0.0014772593mg 0.00984ng/ml


    One serum half-life (76 days)

    At 100% efficiency - 7.913814388mg 52.758ng/ml
    At 10% efficiency - 0.7913814388mg 5.2758ng/ml
    At 1% efficiency - 0.07913814388mg 0.52758ng/ml




    201 days cutoff at 30mg accumulated


    At 100% efficiency - 12.89302584mg 85.9533ng/ml
    At 10% efficiency 1.289302584mg 8.59533ng/ml
    At 1% efficiency - 0.1289302584mg 0.859533ng/ml




    335 days cutoff at 50mg accumulated


    At 100% efficiency - 14.3765611mg 95.8433ng/ml
    At 100% efficiency cutoff at 201 days 3.394385667mg 22.6286ng/ml
    At 10% efficiency - 1.43765611mg 9.58433ng/ml
    At 1% efficiency - 0.143765611mg 0.958433ng/ml




    Five Serum half-lives (380 days)


    At 100% efficiency - 14.56805435mg 97.12ng/ml
    At 100% efficiency cutoff at 201 days 2.168310737mg 14.4553ng/ml
    At 100% efficiency cutoff at 335 days 9.183650551mg 61.224ng/ml
    At 10% efficiency - 1.456805435mg 9.712ng/ml
    At 1% efficiency 0.1456805435mg 0.9712ng/ml


    Ten Serum half-lives (760 days)

    At 100% efficiency - 14.89901603mg 99.3266ng/ml
    At 100% efficiency cutoff at 201 days 0.049260372mg 0.3284ng/ml
    At 100% efficiency cutoff at 335 days 0.208637089mg 1.3906ng/ml
    At 10% efficiency - 1.489901603mg 9.93266ng/ml
    At 1% efficiency - 0.1489901603mg 0.993266ng/ml




    DISCUSSION

    Lets consider then that it would take about 200mg of methylb12 to convert 30mg all at once with 100% efficiency to reach the lowest toxic effects level of methylmercury. While this is on top of the unknowable existent methylmercury level, we can assume that conversion isnt 100%. Considering that even a 1000mcg dose of MB12 has substantial effects as methylb12 it is obvious most of it isnt being immediately disabled by mercury, that in fact most of it is being flushed rapidly out of the body with some small number of mcgs being utilized as b12. So perhaps a 10% conversion rate is the right order of magnitude for conversion. At 10% conversion with a 76 day serum half-life the contributed level of methylmercury never gets above 10ng/ml, 5% of the minimum needed level to cause toxic effects. So it appears most likely that the only persons affected would be ones who are already sitting at the edge of toxic effect.
     
  17. suraj

    suraj

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    5
    @Freddd Fantastic that this model was built way back in 2009. However im not sure if i still understand all of the math behind this.

    i still have some basic questions. i understand Methyl mercury gets excreted at less than 1% per day, then what about inorganic mercury? like the mercury released from amalgams and when you say Hg does it mean inorganic Hg.

    why complicate the stuff, when you can simply remove the source of mercury.

    then what is the conversion of Inorganic mercury to methyl mercury which is parked in the organs.

    next how is this inorgainc mercury going to be escorted out of the organs for excretion.

    The video in this link may be informative. https://vimeo.com/quicksilverscientific
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,961
    Likes:
    1,503
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Suraj,

    I was looking into the possibility of inorganic mercury contributing to B12 deficiency symptoms as there is an 80% overlap, and if taking any quantity of MeCbl could cause enough monomethylmercury to form faster than it gets excreted so that it can build up to a toxic symptoms level. Through some accidents of methyl-mercury the serum half-life is pretty solidly 71-76 days or thereabouts on a small set of data, say 0.9% to approximately1.0% per day excretion in the bile by the liver. Using that excretion rate then based on the methylmercury (monomethylmercury to be specific) which begins to cause symptoms at a body load of 30mg approximate, the question this asks then is what is the highest equilibrium of mmm being created by destroying MeCbl, by stealing the methyl group from the MeCbl. We have 4 examples of rapid destruction of MeCbl via 2 methods. If Bismuth gets into serum it will cause nerve damage and other symptoms in days to weeks via stealing the methyl group. Arsenic does the same thing being excreted as tetra-methyl arsenate and hexa-methyl arsenate and maybe other poly-methyl arsenates that re formed, gas smelling like garlic. Cyanide does it by instantly destroying MeCbl turning it to CyCbl, an INACTIVE cobalamin causing severe methyltrap in minutes that hastens the excretion. The last I know of is glutathione, converting MeCbl to glutathionylcobalamin, an inactive cobalamin that is rapidly excreted becasue of the severe methyltrap it causes. These have very clear symptoms. The clear symptoms from taking MeCbl and l-methylfolate is refeeding syndrome consisting of induced deficiency symptoms of usually low phosphorous, low potassium , low methylfolate, low copper, lkow boron, low molybdenum and low manganese (orders may vary in all ways) assuming everything else is being taken adequately

    At 100% efficiency, all MeCbl donating methyl group to Hg it would require 201mg to 335mg of methylcobalamin to immediately convert 30-50mg of Hg to monomethylmercury causing the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans.


    At 10% efficiency, 10% of all MeCbl donating methyl group to Hg it would require 2011mg to 3351mg of methylcobalamin to immediately convert 30-50mg of Hg to monomethylmercury causing the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans.


    At 1% efficiency, 1% of all methylb12 donating methyl group to Hg it would require 20,107mg to 33,511mg of methylcobalamin to immediately convert 30-50mg of Hg to methylmercury causing the earliest effects of methyl mercury in humans.


    So as we see at 3 different orders of magnitude that 201mg to 33,511mg at 1% rate of conversion. The 30-50mg of Hg, chemical mercury, inorganic mercury would take possibly in excess of a dose 33 grams of MeCbl just to be able to convert the Hg to monomethylmercury all at once if the MeCbl works in 10 minute before it starts pouring pout of the kidneys. Looking at this, it is clear that IF mercury actually got methylated by MeCbl it happens too slowly to cause any symptoms or toxicity.

    As far as I know, Hg is reacted with methyl groups, slowly, wherever it is found and then finds it's way to the liver for excretion. If selenium is taken the Hg is immobilized in place in non reactive inert compound until incinerated.
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,961
    Likes:
    1,503
    Salt Lake City

    The root problem is refeeding syndrome, of getting sick and after 3-6 months of healing or so other symptoms develop. The "symptoms on top" are the ones of whatever deficiency is causing the non- healing currently. One reason it is so tough to pin down is that it is changing all the time. Each time you "fix" it it changes. It's a different game than you thought. And I went through 2 or 3 mercury docs before writing them off during my 20 years of 100% wrong doctors. I had lots of mercury. My father was a dentist and I played with it. I had plenty of amalgams. Most people get nowhere chasing mercury.

    I think mercury is a chasing your tails mostly.

    However, many people taking AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate and their responsive form of carnitine for a year or more appears very likely to be having trace mineral shortages even with small supplements. I had SACD type damage occurring from copper deficiency despite being "in range". I got into trouble after putting on 50 pounds of muscle restoring atrophied muscles. When I tried copper, I knew in 4 hours. I knew on boron within 2 hours and molybdenum/manganese in 2 days. Refeeding syndrome symptoms respond to the MOST deficient item very quickly to the naked eye level. Methylating mercury, if it does so at all, removes it from the body over a number of years. It takes 1 mg of mercury to destroy all the Active B12 a person has in their body, about 5 mg. If it reacted fast enough like other MeCbl destroyers, mercury would cause methyltrap in hours like bismuth, arsenic, cyanide and glutathione. Instead it reacts so slowly there is good reason to doubt that it does so at all to any significant amount.
     
  20. suraj

    suraj

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    5
    Hi @Freddd
    Sounds as Fantastic model. but as we know in vitro vs in vivo behaviors are quite different. why take a chance, why keep the source of the problem within us, we can just remove the source of the problem that is Amalgam, to rule out ambiguity. as its costs about $300-400 per tooth. which is worth while investment in long run. Especially when things are not favoring us and rule out every possible source of the problem.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page