Methylation, Vitamin D intolerance-- biochemical interactions?

[Freddd]

I have a puzzle I'm hoping the biochemically minded folk on this forum may have some insight into. Brief background: I'm 30 years into the CFS journey, having knocked back chronic infections (C. pneumoniae, chronic yeast problems), and working on methylation issues (blood test identified MTHR C677T defect). My two big symptom concerns are fatigue and very significant brain fog. I've been working on methylation, now up to about 3000-4800mcg of folapro a day. I had an energy kick-in when I started to increase the methylcobalamin and dicobenzide. I keep expecting some improvement in the brain fog, but no dice so far. I had no negative reactions to either folapro or B12.

Here's the puzzle piece- I've been low in Vitamin D levels for years, and my CFS doc has been working with me to get them up. I don't have my current levels, but they are likely approaching low normal ranges by now. The difficulty has been that any increase in dosing created reactions: fatigue, muscle and joint pain, gut disturbance. Increasing my D3 very gradually-- 400iu increment for a at least a month-- and I've gotten up to 2000iu a day. This has had a fabulous effect on my immune system, I seem to shrug off viruses and infections, remarkable for a CFS'er. BUT--- the other day I decided I was handling D so well that I decided to double my dose to 4000iu.:Retro redface: Next day I was completely flattened with brain fog and depressed mood. I couldn't think my way out of a paper bag! I'm not entirely certain if this is the D, but I recall this "side effect" from when I first started D, which at that time I attributed to viral/bacterial die-off. I'm thinking of stopping it entirely for a time to see if this is what's flattening me. Since my immune system clearly is better from D I don't want to undercut it, but this much brain fog isn't life. Curiously, I don't seem to get this effect from sunlight exposure, at least that I can recall.

My wish here is to get some speculation by those more knowledgeable than I about the biochemical interactions on potential interactions of methylation problems, Vitamin D and brain chemistry. Could the increased D suppressing available neurotransmitters or interfere with methylation phases? Could I have a defect in metabolizing D3 that might render it toxic, much as I have a defect metabolizing folic acid?

Hi Jimk,

If you want I will walk you through these things and help identify the problems, starting at the beginning so I know where we are. At this point it could be all sorts of things lacking. It would mean taking your program to a known state and then eliminating the problems, such as not enough potassium and not enough metafolin. Those of us with paradoxical folate deficiency might need anywhere from 7500mcg to 30,000mcg of metafolin to overcome the paradoxical folate deficiency. That alone could account for many of you symptoms.

 

[Ocean]

[quote=" Freddd has written that some people have found that they needed more K when taking D.

Very good point. I am one of those people who can tolerate D if I take enough K.[/quote]
Sara, how much do you take of K and how much of D? I'm taking K2 but maybe I'm not taking enough.

 

[Ocean]

Hi Ocean;

I haven't found a direct relationship between vitamin D and B12, but it could exist. But trouble with vitamin D supplementation may indicate a disturbance with calcium metabolism. Calcium needs alot of guidance, and from what I'm trying to learn about it, so many things need to be available and in balance for it to be properly placed in the body.

It's possible that the nerve tingling indicates more than one thing. It could be that more B12 is needed to heal nerves, and that the calcium needs some more guidance. For myself, the zinc appears to be a cofactor that has been missing in the process of calcium metabolism.

Thanks Crux, I'm going to try calcium and zinc for now. The zinc lozenges I got gave me reflux (too acidic) so I'll be ordering a new kind soon.

 

[Crux]

Hi Ocean;

I think Sara M was refering to potassium. Sometimes K is used because it is the symbol for potassium in the periodic table of elements. I regret using it because it can be easily confused with vitamin K. ( sorry, my bad ).

With calcium, sometimes it's more effective to provide supplements that help with its absorption, rather than adding the calcium itself. We may be getting plenty of it in our diets, but we may need the cofactors to help direct calcium to the right places.

I understand that many supplements may contain additives that can be irritating. It's a challenge to detect the offending substance. Some of the supplements I take are the new chapters food based types. But even foods and herbs can give us trouble, so checking the ingredients list is helpful.

 

[SaraM]

Sara, how much do you take of K and how much of D? I'm taking K2 but maybe I'm not taking enough.[/quote]

Hey Ocean, Crux is right. I was referring to Potassium. I take half a teaspoon of Potassium, but I don' t have a good relationship with minerals. They make me sleepy when I take them during the day, but at the same time they reduce my muscle pain. I am also taking Thorne Research K2 ( 400 k2, 2000 D), and I am ok with it, but this one is new to me.Took the first dose yesterday.

 

[VelvetBlade]

My Vitamin D was too low to measure for 18 months despite supplementation of 50,000 IU each week. I noticed I was starting to have symptoms of toxicity (rapid heart rate, etc). Instead now I take 12,000 IU daily in an emulsion (BioForte) and every 2 weeks I get injections of 50,000 IU D3. This has made a slow, but remarkable difference. I am now a few points below low-normal, which is the highest it has been since it disappeared (seemingly). I also take an awesome multi-mineral supplement. For a few days after the injections I stop the daily, then start up again. It works for me. The only thing I can think of as to why this works when I tried several other methods of supplementation that made me worse is that the bioavailability is better. You don't get reactions to too much Vitamin D from the sun because your body can process it. With many supplements quality and bioavailibility is key. Hope it helps. I know it's not all scientific, but this is what helped me so perhaps it might help others as well.

 

[Lotus97]

You actually do need more vitamin K if you're supplementing with vitamin D since vitamin D will increase blood levels of calcium. This could cause hypercalcemia and lead to calcification of the arteries and tissues. Vitamin K helps transport the calcium into your bones. Vitamin K2 specifically is supposed to be more bioavailable than K1. Vitamin K2 comes in the forms of MK-4 and MK-7. MK7 stays in your system longer so you only need to take it longer, but MK4 seems to have other advantages so I take both MK7 and MK4.

 

[Crux]

Hi;
Here are a couple of abstracts that describe the effect of zinc on vitamin D receptors.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16623997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10777672

 

[Leon]

Hi Ocean;

But I do supplement because sometimes I can't eat the quantity of food to get enough. It's recommended that taking between 250-500 mgs. at a time should not be a problem for most people unless they have renal failure or untreated adrenal failure.

Hi Crux,

This is a really useful thread. Just wondering what you meant by 'untreated adrenal failure'? I'm assuming you didn't mean primary adrenal insufficiency? My adrenals are very weak, and am having problems with electrolytes, particularly sodium wasting, and suspect aldosterone problems. For this reason, I'm a little reticent to take D if I would need more K, but also - if I'm not overreacting to this statement about 'adrenal failure' - because of the state of my adrenals, If you could clarify what you mean by this, I'd be grateful.


Thanks -
Leon

 

[Crux]

Hi @Leon ;

I used the phrase, untreated adrenal failure, to be inclusive of primary adrenal insufficiency, et al.

At one point, we were discussing the possibility that some folks might need extra potassium with vitamin D supplementation. That was only speculative.

Most of the discussion has been about which supplements would act as 'cofactors' for Vitamin D metabolism. Vitamin K2, along with zinc, boron, and magnesium, have been suggested by some.

I agree that if you are having electrolyte problems, particularly sodium wasting, it would be very important to find out why.
Tests including aldosterone, ACTH, cortisol, etc. would be necessary. ( I think you're aware of this.)

I would only hesitate to take vitamin D if calcium tends to be high. Some people with adrenal insufficiency have this, but they're a minority.

 

[Leon]

Thanks, Crux - much appreciated.

I've just pulled out a recent test result, and my intracellular calcium is 150nmol/l. Would you say this was sufficient high to exercise caution? Does that mean I need cofactors for calcium or D? (Sorry, this is a little confusing.)

Could I also ask why adrenal problems create problems for vitamin D supplementation? I don't understand the link.

The cause of the intracellular calcium, according to the lab that conducted the test, is that I have multiple sensitivities (mercury, both inorganic and organic; nickel; aluminium; benzoate; cetrimide; trichlorophenols) causing my cells to take in calcium in order to bring about their death. I'm not sure this qualifies as high calcium in the traditional sense of the word. My doctor didn't seem too concerned about this; but I increasingly lose confidence in experts' knowledge of these things!

 

[Crux]

Hi @Leon

I'm unfamiliar with the intracellular calcium test. What is the normal range?

When I brought up adrenal problems earlier in this thread, it was when we were discussing potassium supplementation, not vitamin D.

I have come across some info about people who take corticosteroids might need more vit. D.

I am also unfamiliar with the cause of high intracellular calcium being from high metals and the other substances listed.
This would take alot of research to understand. (yow) What type of specialist does this testing?

 

[Leon]

Hi Crux,

Annoyingly, the test doesn't provide a normal range; the doctor merely says that the level was high in his report, and reflects the toxicities uncovered. Calcium is, apparently, very toxic in large amounts to cells, so it's a useful means of suicide!

I did the test through Acumen labs (Devon, England). It's called the 'Lymphocyte Sensitivity Test(s)'. The blurb:

"When sensitized lymphocytes are exposed to a low level of the 'allergen' the responses include the rapid passage of calcium into the cells..."

Thanks for clarifying the point about the adrenals/supplementation. I'm glad the K+ supplementation point wasn't about vitamin D. My addled brain is grateful!

 

[ahmo]

Hi Crux,

This is a really useful thread. Just wondering what you meant by 'untreated adrenal failure'? I'm assuming you didn't mean primary adrenal insufficiency? My adrenals are very weak, and am having problems with electrolytes, particularly sodium wasting, and suspect aldosterone problems. For this reason, I'm a little reticent to take D if I would need more K, but also - if I'm not overreacting to this statement about 'adrenal failure' - because of the state of my adrenals, If you could clarify what you mean by this, I'd be grateful.


Thanks -
Leon

Leon, re adrenal issues, this might or might not be useful. Before my current healing regimen (GAPS diet, B12 and pyroluria protocols), I'd been treating my adrenals w/ Chinese licorice, seemingly successful. I also tried low dose cortisone. When both of these caused edema and other symptoms, I tried adrenal glandular. This has been wonderful for me. It seems to be able to directly assist my adrenals with no side effects. Best to you, ahmo

 

[Violeta]

Hi Crux,

Annoyingly, the test doesn't provide a normal range; the doctor merely says that the level was high in his report, and reflects the toxicities uncovered. Calcium is, apparently, very toxic in large amounts to cells, so it's a useful means of suicide!

I did the test through Acumen labs (Devon, England). It's called the 'Lymphocyte Sensitivity Test(s)'. The blurb:

"When sensitized lymphocytes are exposed to a low level of the 'allergen' the responses include the rapid passage of calcium into the cells..."

Thanks for clarifying the point about the adrenals/supplementation. I'm glad the K+ supplementation point wasn't about vitamin D. My addled brain is grateful!

@Leon, Did your doctor measure intracellular magnesium? Or phosphate?
I've also been wondering if intracellular uric acid or estrogen pulls calcium into the cells.

@ahmo, regular licorice is estrogenic, I wonder if Chinese licorice is. A friend of mine who is having swelling of the hands and feet has been noticing that it coincides with hormonal changes. (Just a tangent)

 

[Crux]

Hi @Leon ;

I've been all over the place trying to figure this out...
Some research claims that intracellular calcium correlates to serum calcium, some claim it doesn't.

I think a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel would be a good measure for calcium, and other electrolytes.

Metametrix, in their analysis, states that high intracellular calcium indicates the cell membrane is compromised. They recommend magnesium, antioxidants, and omega 3 fatty acids to rectify this.

http://www.metametrix.com/files/test-menu/interpretive-guides/Elements-IG.pdf

I see you've had problems with magnesium chloride. Have you tried other compounds, such as mg. glycinate, taurate, citrate, threonate, gluconate, etc.? ( personally, I use mg. chloride trandermally.)

I read on another thread that you get cramps from magnesium, but that sodium relieves them. Low sodium can cause cramps too.

If you are intolerant of many types of magnesium, it may be a good idea to test serum or RBC mg. ( It could be high.)

 

[Violeta]

Just on the topic of magnesium chloride causing cramps, I had read a lot about uric acid, and the author that I have read the most did extensive research with numerous compounds. He found that magnesium chloride precipitates uric acid almost immediately, I believe that was in vitro, though. I have a ton of magnesium chloride, but since I read that I've been afraid to use it.

 

[Violeta]

Hi Crux,

This is a really useful thread. Just wondering what you meant by 'untreated adrenal failure'? I'm assuming you didn't mean primary adrenal insufficiency? My adrenals are very weak, and am having problems with electrolytes, particularly sodium wasting, and suspect aldosterone problems. For this reason, I'm a little reticent to take D if I would need more K, but also - if I'm not overreacting to this statement about 'adrenal failure' - because of the state of my adrenals, If you could clarify what you mean by this, I'd be grateful.


Thanks -
Leon

With respect to the aldosterone problem, do you have frequent night time urination? I think I have the vasopressin insufficiency side of the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasopressin
I started taking reishi, and I can't remember how I made the tie-in between reishi and the aldosterone/vasopressin issue, but it does seem to be helping.
Vitamin D can be a problem when your adrenals have been putting out a lot of hormones for quite some time, because the hormones most likely have caused a congested liver. Vitamin D has to be processed through the liver. Any additional "work" for the liver to do while it's congested only makes the problem worse.

Methylation is work for the liver, too. That's where Vitamin D and methylation cross paths. Reishi helps clear out the liver, too. Helps adrenal fatigue. It's a balancer.

 

[Leon]

@Leon, Did your doctor measure intracellular magnesium? Or phosphate?
I've also been wondering if intracellular uric acid or estrogen pulls calcium into the cells.

Hi Violeta,

No, I'm afraid he didn't test for these. The only magnesium related reading was for endogenous magnesium in ATP, which was very low..

 

[Leon]

With respect to the aldosterone problem, do you have frequent night time urination? I think I have the vasopressin insufficiency side of the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasopressin
I started taking reishi, and I can't remember how I made the tie-in between reishi and the aldosterone/vasopressin issue, but it does seem to be helping.
Vitamin D can be a problem when your adrenals have been putting out a lot of hormones for quite some time, because the hormones most likely have caused a congested liver. Vitamin D has to be processed through the liver. Any additional "work" for the liver to do while it's congested only makes the problem worse.

Methylation is work for the liver, too. That's where Vitamin D and methylation cross paths. Reishi helps clear out the liver, too. Helps adrenal fatigue. It's a balancer.

I have high ALT levels, which suggests my liver is already working hard. Before adding salt, I was urinating up to 8 times each night and frequently during the day. So, this is to say that I should make sure my liver is in good health before starting vitamin D by taking, e.g., milk thistle?